Beyond Good or Bad: The Feedback Framework Every Professional Needs with Rachael Bosch

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Description

Feedback is often labeled “good” or “bad,” but that binary misses the point. In this episode of Branding Room Only, Paula Edgar sits down with Rachael Bosch — founder of Fringe Professional Development and creator of Candorly — to explore why delivery matters as much as content and how consistent feedback can fuel and strengthen your personal brand.

Rachael also shares her journey from Miami and the stage to law firm talent management and entrepreneurship, bringing humor, honesty, and practical insights along the way. Together, Paula and Rachael dig into authenticity as a scale (not a switch), the importance of agency in choosing environments that align with your values, and how leaders can treat feedback as data to close the gap between self-perception and how others experience them.

Chapters

1:25 – Rachael’s view on branding, three self-descriptive words, favorite Dolly Parton quote, and musical motivation (from Whitesnake to Beyoncé)

5:41 – How the melting pot of Miami and her theater background influenced Rachael’s upbringing

9:28 – Rachael’s shift from the arts into law and professional development

15:30 – Why Rachael pursued entrepreneurship and launched Fringe Professional Development

19:13 – The importance (and scale) of personal branding authenticity in professional settings

25:29 – The importance of agency in choosing aligned working environments

31:46 – How you can demonstrate to others that you receive feedback well

35:18 – Feedback as a data set that should be analyzed (especially for the historically underrepresented)

37:59 – Why good and bad feedback is about the delivery, not the content

40:40 – How Fringe’s feedback tool Candorly works for individuals and organizations

48:43 – The role of pop culture in Rachael’s professional trajectory and the uncompromisable component of her brand

Connect With Rachael Bosch

Rachael Bosch is a strategist, coach, and speaker. She founded Fringe PD to help people across industries and experience levels communicate more effectively at work. Having worked in talent management for more than a decade, she knows firsthand the necessity and value of strong communication skills and inclusive leadership. 

To her work, Rachael brings certified training in brain-based coaching (NeuroLeadership Institute), women in leadership (Cornell University), mediating disputes (Harvard Law School of Executive Studies), and the DiSC and EQi 2.0© methodologies. She is an active member of the Forbes Coaches Council and serves as a Trusted Advisor to the Professional Development Consortium. She also has a background in theatrical performance and vocalization, is a two-time Ironman finisher, and has a rapscallion of sheepadoodle named Henry who lives with her in Washington, D.C.

Follow Rachael on LinkedIn

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This episode is brought to you by PGE Consulting Group LLC.

PGE Consulting Group LLC empowers individuals and organizations to lead with purpose, presence, and impact. Specializing in leadership development and personal branding, we offer keynotes, custom programming, consulting, and strategic advising—all designed to elevate influence and performance at every level.

Founded and led by Paula Edgar, our work centers on practical strategies that enhance professional development, strengthen workplace culture, and drive meaningful, measurable change.

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Transcript

Paula Edgar: Welcome to Branding Room Only, the podcast where your personal brand gets a front-row seat. I'm Paula Edgar, and if you're here, it's because you know your brand isn't just about what you do. It's about how people experience you. In each episode, you'll hear stories, strategies, and lessons from leaders and influencers who built their brands and made their mark. And I'll share the tools you need to do the same. Let's go. Hi, everyone. It's Paula Edgar, and we're back in the Branding Room. Welcome to Branding Room Only. Today's guest is one of my favorite people, so you are in for a treat. Let me tell you about her. Her name is Rachael Bosch, and she is the founder and CEO of Fringe Professional Development, where she helps lawyers and leaders cut through the noise and actually enjoy the work they do. She spent her career in and around law firms and knows just how complicated those environments can be, child. With Fringe, she brings humor, honesty, and practical tools to help people lead and communicate with confidence. She's my friend, and that's important. So Rachael, welcome to the Branding Room. Rachael Bosch: Finally. Thank you. Paula Edgar: We are here. Rachael Bosch: I've been asking for years, "Paula, what do I have to do? Do I have to send flowers, candy, what?" Paula Edgar: I just need more Fringe swag. But let's jump in. Let's jump in. Rachael, how would you define personal branding? What does it mean to you? How would you define it? Rachael Bosch: I define it as whatever Paula tells me it is because I constantly am saying, "I don't do branding. I don't do marketing." Then I tell people that I literally have a little Paula on my shoulder who's like, "Shut the hell up. Yes, you do. What do you think that that newsletter is? What is that LinkedIn post? What is that thing you're doing at a conference?" So I think that I probably, like a lot of people, have this idea that personal branding is this very big thing. It's got to have different arms of a marketing campaign going on in it. I think that what you teach me is that it's just me showing up in spaces where I can be of use. Paula Edgar: Yes. Yes. Consistently. Rachael Bosch: Consistently. Yes. Paula Edgar: Exactly. Exactly. I love that definition because it's true. People put a lot of weight on it. That's what makes it seem not tangible, but it is a game-changer. I take what you just said. I'm so proud of my little Paula being on your shoulder. You too can buy it. No, I'm just kidding. How would you describe yourself in three words or short phrases? Rachael Bosch: Funny. Provocative. Authentic. Paula Edgar: Yes, I love that. I love that. And because it's my podcast and I can tell people my words, I would say consistent, strategic, and thoughtful. Rachael Bosch: Yeah, I agree. Paula Edgar: Yes, yes. Do you have a favorite quote? Rachael Bosch: Do I have a favorite quote? I have a favorite quote of late because I feel like it does change a lot. This is a Dolly Parton quote, so all hail Queen Dolly. It kind of, well, actually this was not prepared, people listening. It's very in line with what we were just saying. The quote is, "Find out who you really are and do that on purpose." Paula Edgar: That's a perfect quote. I love that. I love that. What about this? And for you, I'm interested to hear what your answer to this one is. I ask everybody what their hype song is. So this is when they're going to get full Rachael on stage, what's playing in your head, or if you're having a terrible day, what song brings you up? And it can be the same song or different. Rachael Bosch: Oh my God. Now I'm going to forget the band, and somebody's going to shame me on the internet for this. But you know that song—this is the hype song, this is when I'm about to go out and speak or something like that—it's "Here I Go Again on My Own." Paula Edgar: We will know who it is afterwards. Yes, yes. I'm like, "I also don't know, so feel free to shame us both." It's fine. I'm like, "I know it, but Shazam is not on right now." Rachael Bosch: And then to feel better is like a mix. So Paula knows this, but my background is actually in music and conservatory. There's a lot of—I'll use the lawyer phrase—"it depends" in my answer. What am I feeling better from? What is the situation? What is the context? I've got a couple of go-to musical songs from here that I love. The entire Taylor Swift Lover album is, if I just need to be a little lighter, a little [inaudible], you know. If I need to hustle, I am putting on, please do not shame me for my white girl answer here, but I'm putting on "Freedom" by Beyoncé. Paula Edgar: I mean, all things Beyoncé. And if she's not raised every day, then something has gone wrong. Rachael Bosch: I want to hear when I am not feeling well, aside from my first answer, which has more of my hype song, I want to hear from some badass ladies. I want a lady to come and tell me it's all going to be okay. Paula Edgar: I'm with it. And we absolutely all need that because, and women that we trust, and I know that that's the case for me. So you told me about your song, you told me about your quote, you told me about your words. Tell me about how you grew up and how you think where and how you grew up and how did that shape your brand. Rachael Bosch: It's so weird telling Paula a story that I know Paula knows the answer to but I'm going to tell anyway. We'll rehash it. We'll rehash it. Oh no, it's fun. So I completely incongruous with my adult self and personality grew up in Miami, Florida. And like Miami, like Miami. Nobody believes that. It doesn't seem like it fits me at all until—and I don't drink anymore, but when I did, I had a couple of drinks in me and somebody ticked me off, and then it came out. I will say this, growing up in Miami—and we're talking Miami-Dade County, early 80s—my parents lived there all the way through when I went to college. So when I was coming home, I was still going to Miami. I was flying to Fort Lauderdale because Miami Airport's a mess. But you were going down to Miami. Back then, it was a true melting pot, and it wasn't as glossy as it is now. I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean that in a good way. You had people from all different backgrounds mixing with each other, talking to each other. I am a white Jewish girl, but what do I have? I have Tias, right? All of my Tias took care of me. My sister's first word was agua. [Inaudible] where it was counted on that you were with people different than you and that that was a blessing and joy and that you could learn from them. I think that has shaped a lot of who I am as an adult, even though most people wouldn't guess that that's where it comes from. I want to be in places with people who think differently than me, who look differently than me, who act differently than me. I'm curious. I'm really curious just as an adult. That, I think, growing up in Miami really did shape that. Also, my love of pastelitos, but you know. Yeah, I think that shaped a lot of who I am. Then going into theater also shaped a really strong focus on curiosity. "Why am I doing this? What am I doing here?" When the director of a play asks you those questions, it's not acceptable to just be like, "I don't know." You come up with something, and you learn to come up with things. Like, "Why am I here? What am I doing?" It goes back to—you said thoughtful for your work. Thoughtful and intentional, right? So close. I think I try to be really intentional with everything I do. It stems from that curiosity. Paula Edgar: I love that because it also—yes, I knew the story, but I do think also thinking about how we shift and change, hearing it now, I hear it differently. I value it more because of where we are in the world and how important that is in terms of how our values are shaped and how our openness to experiences becomes. It's a part of the magnetic thing that we have because I think that growing up in New York has a similar situation. Old Brooklyn, not old. Anyway, I'm just saying. Anywho. So talk to me about going from Miami to where you are now and your professional journey. Walk us through that. Rachael Bosch: Oh my God. It doesn't make any sense except that it does in hindsight. I left Miami. I went to one of the largest performing arts high schools in Miami. So I knew I wanted to be in arts and creative and doing something. I went to conservatory in a really small town in Virginia, not too far from DC, which is why I've gotten connected to DC and why I felt so connected here. But really small town. My entire college, when I got there, the entire school, all the student body and other classes, was smaller than my high school graduating class. Paula Edgar: Oh, talk about culture shift. Rachael Bosch: Exactly. Besides that it was cold and I had to buy a jacket and closed-toed shoes, "What do you mean my little toesies?" So it was definitely a culture shift. The first culture shift was that I did not realize the difference. I got to campus in Northern Virginia and everybody I met, I kissed, kissed. That's what we do in Miami. That's how you say hello. That's how you meet people. People are like, "She's got a crush on all these boys." [inaudible] Paula Edgar: Oh, she's kissing everybody. Rachael Bosch: I had to learn that, oh, that's not. Truly, real cultural norms were so different. But that curiosity piece was there. So I go to theater school, graduate from there, start working professionally while I'm still at conservatory. Working professionally, I moved down to Memphis. So talk about, again, I just cannot abide a moderate culture, is what I'm learning about myself. I'm always going to be in an extreme. I spent a year in Memphis performing and then ended up in DC, where I'm still performing. I'm still a full-time stage actress. During that time, I got bills to pay, you know? So I got a temp job at a law firm, of all places, a temp job at a law firm. Then somebody takes retirement unexpectedly. They're like, "We need some help. Can you stay?" I sort of said yes. I really crave structure. I like structure in my life. The arts is not a place to find yourself some stuff. The other thing that Paula knows about me, and I'll out myself, is I like nice things. Paula Edgar: Same. Rachael Bosch: This is not a place where most people quickly are going to have access to the funds for nice things. Paula Edgar: Legally. Rachael Bosch: I was working in law firms. We're checking a lot of boxes. And it was temporary, right? I don't think I intended to stay in law firm world. Slowly, over time, I was doing more and more of it. I was liking it. I was liking the structure. I like to do everything at a very high level. So when I was performing, I wanted to perform at the highest level. Quite frankly, when you're doing small regional theater, no offense to those, but they're not at the level that I was always comfortable with. Sometimes they were incredible shows. Very hit or miss, though. One of the things I love about law firms is it's a bunch of elite cognitive athletes. They're real smart people. I was like, "Hmm, well, I like that." So over time, I really decided that that was going to be the primary focus, and this was going to be a hobby over here, the arts. So I was in one law firm, another law firm, third law firm. At that third, it was at the time that firm was very entrepreneurial. If you had an idea, go do it, whatever you want. So I was building up curriculums. I was thinking about coaching before people were thinking about coaching. I said, "I would love to do this here. I'd like to build out more of a good training and coaching curriculum." They were like, "That's so cute. Yeah, no, you can do that, and your job." I was like, "I love you all." Like truly, truly love the firm. Love the firm. [inaudible] No, thank you. Even me as a risk-averse person, I was hiring people coming into the firm and seeing the way that they did things. Two things were very self-evident to me. The first was that a lot of people like to come in and talk about things that are interesting, but are not necessarily useful to that group in that moment. Then who do they come to for the useful stuff? The internal people. So how do I use that? What do I do with that? I really wanted to play with that. Then I was also just like, the process of working with a lot of consultants was not good. I'm chasing people for invoices. I'm chasing you for a proposal. I'm saying I want to give you money. Paula Edgar: Right. Like, "Hello." Rachael Bosch: I agree. Okay, well, look, I'll go, "What if I try this for a little bit, and if it fails, I'll go back to a law firm. [inaudible], but I can try it. I like to do hard things." And it's eight years, almost nine years later now, and I tried it. Paula Edgar: And it worked. I mean, obviously, I think the standard of wanting to hit that excellent standard is the through line through all of that. It's how you show up in thinking about branding, et cetera. I know that if you're going to do something, I don't have to worry about that. There are some people who I'm like, "Let me just see it first. Let me just go ahead, and let's try, and then we'll do this." But I can say surely, and not just because you're my friend, that it is how you show up and it makes a difference. So you launched Fringe. You wanted to bring more humanity and better communication into professional services. You talked about the fact that you had to navigate the other people and I can do this. Was there a specific catalyst that said, "I'm leaving now, I'm going to do this now?" Rachael Bosch: That's such a good question. There were a series of events that happened in rapid succession. So as I think is typical, right? Paula Edgar: Yes. Rachael Bosch: So I had a work colleague who was not in legal, was not in this space at all, who had her own business. I was kind of helping her meet law firm people. Then she's like, "Hey, would you come do this with me?" We got really far into that process. I started realizing I had more opinions than I thought, which should not have been a shock to me or anyone who knows me. But I was like, "Oh, I actually think it should be this way," Or "I think it should be that way." I was like, "Oh, maybe I would want to do this." I have a lot of thoughts about how this should work holistically. That happened right around the same time that I had one particular person who had come into the firm whom I was paying with the firm, through me, was paying to come in and deliver some training services in this same space. They kept coming to me, asking me to edit their deck, asking me for my feedback. I was like, "Oh." They're coming to me. So those two things happening together were really useful. It was a long burn. Like I remember sitting at a conference with some of my leaders at the firm at the time. I told them, I said, "A year from now at next year's conference, I'm not going to have this job. I can have another job at the firm, but this will not be my job." I said, "I love you guys. That's why I'm telling you this." Everyone needs to love their colleagues. I love my colleagues. So I did. I told them that, and over time, it became clear over that year that like that wasn't going to happen. But the firm gave me a big runway. They let me take on clients before I left. We were great about it and the next conference, it was like, I mean only like a couple months in, but I was there with Fringe Professional Development on my name tag. Paula Edgar: I love it. I love the visioning, the intention setting, the action, all of the things that I live in. That makes me so happy. For those of you who are listening, think about what those goals that you have are. There's something about saying it out loud that makes, I think, a contract with the universe. All of a sudden, things start to shift. It's a power. I've seen it over and over and over again. It is a powerful thing to set intentions. So you and I have in common that we work a lot with law firms. There's a lot we've learned in those spaces. They're not necessarily known for being places where authenticity thrives or where, depending on the culture, that speaking up is something that is often wanted unless it's in a certain space, place, time. So I think about personal branding because obviously I live it and I talk to people at firms about it all the time. But there's always a shift that I have to make with them in order for them to get why it's important to them. Why do you think personal brand is important when professionals are thinking about finding their voice and who they are? Rachael Bosch: I want to answer like 15 questions that were in your question [inaudible] Paula Edgar: Answer the one that you want. Go for it. Rachael Bosch: So, first of all, I think the premise is right. I think that at the same time, the more myself I am, and I mean in ways that you think might not be compatible with a law firm environment, the more I want to reference Bravo in my answers. I don't mean a round of applause. I mean the station, the channel, Andy Cohen. The more people love it, the more I, depending on the environment, flip a little four-letter word in, the more people love it. The more my tattoos show, the more people love it. So people think of like, "Oh, they don't love this here." Yet there's a human reaction when somebody is really just being themselves and not having a whole lot of artifice in between you and them. We connect through that. So while they may think they have some constructs of what it is to be in this space and how they have to show up, my experience has taught me that the more I am just me talking to another human, the more people respond really well to that. That goes to the most senior leaders in these firms. So I think that the real piece within this is understanding how to grow into oneself, and how, and this is true for you too, I know this, how excellence provides some flexibility. Paula Edgar: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Rachael Bosch: Yes. If you are shitty at your job, this is not for you. Paula Edgar: Right. We're not playing around with anything. We don't care about your authenticity, because if trash is your baseline, we can't even get there. Rachael Bosch: Yeah. Honestly, if trash or mediocre is your baseline. Paula Edgar: Yes, yes, yes. Rachael Bosch: I think there's that piece, there's the excellence connection. Then I think one of the challenges that I see—and I know I'm not the interviewer, but I want to know what you think too—is I see this a lot with newer professionals, and this is not generational, because I've been seeing this for years, an assumption that you walk in on day one and get to reference Bravo and throw the F-bomb and do the thing. I sure as hell didn't. First of all, I wasn't self-assured enough, but also I hadn't shown people that they should trust me. I think that's a message that I don't think a lot of people like to hear. Paula Edgar: They don't like to hear it. They don't hear it. They need to hear it. I have to tell them over and over again. I think about this often. I have what I call my triple A standard, which is "Attorneys," if I'm speaking to attorneys, "authenticity is attractive." That is true. And authenticity is not an on and off switch. It is a scale. I don't think we should ever be in any place where we cannot feel authentic, we cannot feel like we are welcome, and have some part of us. That just means you're not supposed to be there. But to your point, I'm not going on a day one and being like, "What's up y'all?" and having my authentic self on that scale at a 10, which is wearing sweatpants, which no one will ever see. The only person who sees it is my contractually obligated husband. That's it. That's all. But we get on that scale to Bravo. Once we show that trust, we do the work, and we get more comfortable. But it's not when you walk through the door. You're on a listening. You're on a charm offensive. You got to figure out, "Okay, what's going on? Who do I know? How do they know me? What can I do," and show the effort and energy, even if you don't have the skill yet. Then you can start doing all that other stuff. If it's not attorneys, take this way, the A is all y'all. Authenticity is attractive— Rachael Bosch: Yes. I've been saying like, I think we conflate authenticity and being true to oneself— Paula Edgar: By keeping it real. Rachael Bosch: So what I'll say to junior folks, lawyers, or business professionals, is your core center of self should not change. I always tell them values, boundaries, beliefs, those don't change. How you show up in a space, how much on that sliding scale, you're going to turn Paula on, that's the authenticity piece. You probably use some version of this, but I like to make things weird. So the way that I will get them to understand is I will say I do not engage with my father the same way that I do with my husband because that would be weird and it doesn't feel authentic in either relationship. The same in both values, boundaries, beliefs. Paula Edgar: Right. I'm married with, my husband's very much like my father. Anyway, that's another episode. Rachael Bosch: That's a separate podcast. We'll be starting that next year. Paula Edgar: Yeah, that part. Like, oh, I'm really glad we ran into that. It's a part of our conversation because the personal part of personal branding, people will be like, "Well, it shouldn't be professional branding." I always tell them the reason why I double down on personal branding is because it's all you. But it is personal to you. No matter where you are, it's the you of it. That's why I'm like, "Yeah, my personal brand includes the professional piece." This also includes the sweatpants that I was talking about. That's an important piece of it. In those spaces, it's not necessarily promoted that people should be doing those things. So it is what it is. So let me ask you this. Can you share an example, a moment when trying to fit in didn't serve you? That you had to start showing up authentically because you were not doing that? Rachael Bosch: One blast, [inaudible]. I will say, and this actually piggybacks on what we were just talking about, your environment is a choice, and it is not a choice that everybody has full and equal access to, let's admit it. But we have more agency than I think we think we do. So values, boundaries, and beliefs shouldn't change. When you're in a space where those are in conflict, you need to remove oneself. You need to make a different choice. I think that some people see that as quitting. I mean, sometimes it technically involves quitting. But spiritual quitting. I want people to think of it, and I had to do this myself with what I'm about to say. I didn't make a different choice. I didn't make a choice that served me more. The thing that comes to mind is I was definitely in a professional environment that was not serving me, where values were not in alignment, and that was manifesting behaviorally. I kept the, now the youth, the kids would call it, I had the ick. It didn't feel right. It felt like every day going to work, wearing somebody else's clothes. I'm pulling them out of my closet. They're my clothes, but it wasn't about the clothes. It was about what I was making myself do. I was forming myself into a place that wasn't right for me. It's hard, especially when you're a high-achieving person, to say, "This is not for me." I will be very honest that I was handed an opportunity to make a different choice. Paula Edgar: Yeah, good. Rachael Bosch: [Inaudible] "Everybody just make a different choice," and somebody was like, "Hi, would you like a choice? I've got one for you." That's easier. Everybody has language and context around these concepts that we didn't have when I was in that situation. I even think about the choice not to continue to pursue theater. There were people that I went to school with who I really do love and who are wonderful people who are like, "You're a sellout." I made a choice that was right for me. Paula Edgar: Yeah. I'm glad I asked you the question because your point about agency is an interesting one. I think we get it through reflection. Sometimes we're put in these spaces that force us to make a decision. We realize that we should have made it much, much, much earlier, that we did have agency to do so. I reflect on a role that I was in. Feel free to look through my LinkedIn and guess which one it is, anyway, where they literally made me feel small. I think all of you know that I literally came out of the womb and was like, "I'm here, what's up?" Rachael Bosch: Which is funny because the physically smallest human. [inaudible] Paula Edgar: 5'2", 6'7", in attitude. But this organization systematically and physically put me into a smaller space until I literally was like, "Is this a closet?" Rachael Bosch: Were you under the stairs? Paula Edgar: I was Harry Potter, and they had to come and save me. Hagrid had to come for me. When I think about that, I look back and I go, "What was happening in here that I didn't realize that I was, number one, better than that? Number two, who the hell did they think that they were?" That hindsight is 20-20. That was so much that was going on at that point. What I want you all to take as an audience, whether you're looking at us or just hearing us, is this: sometimes the fear you have of being unable to move or to do, it's a you thing and not an actual thing. The universe will hear when you say enough is enough and either hand you something or make you go get something. Because the day that I left that job, it was Halloween. I'll never forget. It was Halloween. I went home to my husband and I said, "Party's over, fools. I'm not doing this anymore." Then within a week I had two contracts. Within a week. It was just me saying, "Enough is enough." Rachael Bosch: Well, you know what's funny too, like I know we're talking about work. But all of us have been in a personal relationship, romantic or otherwise, we have this exact thing. When we leave, it's like we're the little sponges you put in water and they expand. We've gotten saturated again, and you look back and you're like, "How was I letting that fool do that to me?" Whoever that fool was. Paula Edgar: I was going to say you know him. Rachael Bosch: You and I are both very, very lucky. We have wonderful people who put up with our way-too-big attitudes that we both have. Let's be honest. Paula Edgar: We're blessed. We're blessed. Rachael Bosch: It's true in personal relationships. It's true in relationship to your organization. It's true in relationship to, if you are an employer, your employees. When you look back and you're like, "Hmm, it never felt right," to not listen to our instincts. Paula Edgar: Yes. So as all of you reflect on those relationships that you should have left earlier. I tell them I said, "It's over." Anywho, we both often talk in organizations about feedback and the need for communication. It is such an important part of career growth. Whether you like it or not, whether you want it or not, we need feedback in order to grow, get better, progress, extend, et cetera. How can professionals brand themselves as people who can receive feedback well? Rachael Bosch: Branding, to your point, has so much to do with consistency. So from a feedback perspective, I go to my favorite feedback word, which is behavior. Your behavior shows people. When we think about being coachable, just being able to get feedback and receive it and process it and deal with it, I think a lot of people miss that the final step of being coachable is going back to the coach and saying, "Hey, I did that thing. Does it look better now?" Paula Edgar: Right. I heard you. Rachael Bosch: Yeah, I heard you I think the thing that people miss about feedback, because, look, I don't think it's the most fun for anyone to get constructive or corrective feedback. And anyone who wants to be a high performer needs it. I've made true on my promises. So let's talk about Bravo. The last season of Top Chef was, I will not do any spoilers, although they are already filming the next season so get on top of it, people. One of the finalists, in an early clip, so this was well before you knew what you knew, because you know when you're watching you're like, "Hmm, that's the one." You know who's going to make it to the finals, was doing one of those confessional interviews, just one-on-one. He said, "In order for me to be the best chef I can be, I need better chefs to tear me apart. I can't be better without it." Think about any competition show. So the beginning of Project Runway, the beginning of RuPaul's Drag Race, there are two contestants. Not everybody actually gets to stand in front of the panel of judges and get a critique. Do you know who the most upset people are besides the one who gets voted off? The people who are safe and don't get any feedback. Because everybody in that situation wants to be the best. Paula Edgar: Right. They don't know what to do now. They don't know how to change if they need to change. Yes, yes. Rachael Bosch: That piece, I think we need to carry over to corporate professional environments, is a desire for, and then an implementation and a follow-up on, because the person giving you feedback doesn't hate you. In fact, if somebody gives you feedback, as tough as it may be to hear, that is a sign that they think you are worth it and that you are capable and that they want to invest their time in you. The best way to tell them "Don't invest any more time in me" is to take it and never talk to them about it again. Say, "Hey, yeah, thank you for that investment. I did my work over here. Please keep investing." Paula Edgar: So we know that that is a brand builder because the people who give feedback, it's not easy on that side either. So it's important to have, particularly, I will say this to my people who are from underrepresented groups, when you ask for and receive feedback in ways in which people feel like they can continue to give it to you, it changes some of the places where bias might have been there in the first place where they didn't feel free or want to or were nervous to. So that's a best practice there. But what I really want to ask you about, Rachael, is this: what about when you get feedback, not you, but someone gets feedback, and you don't agree with it? Rachael Bosch: So I was going to go right on top of your comment there about in terms of folks who come from historically underrepresented groups. You have to baseline assume that some of the feedback you're getting is bullshit. It's bullshit. It's not about you. So this is why I say we all need to be asking and giving it more than we want. If you don't think about the feedback that you get as a data set, you're doing it wrong. You need to be able to know, particularly if you hold one or more of those identities, "Hey, 90% of the feedback I get says that I'm really good tonally with clients. This one person came to me and said that I wasn't, and I didn't do anything different that day." That's about them. Now we're not reacting to everything. We're gathering a data set. Evidence is still important in some of our worlds. So we are going to gather a data set that says, "Hey, this is the majority of the feedback I get. If I get an outlier, I can interrogate that outlier. Did I do something? Because sometimes you did. You didn't have your Wheaties that morning, I don't know. Or maybe it was something you did. But if you really do sit with it, interrogate it, and realize "I didn't do anything differently than the other hundred times that I got feedback that was different," now you know that's not about it. Maybe you'll keep your eye on it to see, get more feedback that's different. But you have to get enough to know when it's not about you. And I think the challenge is if you don't get enough, your default could actually be to dismiss things that are about you. Paula Edgar: Without me giving you $5, like I normally give people, you said exactly what I wanted you to bring out. Because that ego and feedback, my joke that I always give is everybody wants feedback when it's good and they ask for it. That's it. And we have to navigate the ego hit, particularly high performers who are used to being, "Yes, I am God's gift to everything, let's show them." But that's not how you get the blessing of what you need to know to continue to elevate and escalate. Rachael Bosch: Yeah, can I also—this is a hill that I'm on right now. Paula Edgar: Let's go. Tell me. Rachael Bosch: Good and bad feedback does not have anything to do with the content. It has to do with the delivery. I want good feedback. That means that you delivered it well. Good feedback is affirmative feedback. What most people say is good, what I think it means is it's affirmative. It's "Paula, you are so good at interviewing people. I need you to be doing that more. You ask great questions." It's strength-based feedback. "Paula, you show up as yourself, and that's really powerful." That's what I would call—I don't even call it good or bad. Now we call it zone one feedback, affirmative feedback. Zone two is behavior corrective feedback. It is either constructive, which we call everything that is something we don't like constructive. Most of the feedback we give is corrective. It's a yes or no. The meeting was on July 8th and you sent it for July 9th. Paula Edgar: Don't do that again. Rachael Bosch: Telling you that, it's corrective. And so most people call both corrective and constructive bad. "That's bad. I'm going to give some bad feedback." And I'm like, "Are you going to yell at them?" No. Then you're not giving bad feedback. Which one are you giving, corrective or constructive? "I don't know." And I'm like, "Well, then you're probably not ready to give it." Paula Edgar: Right. And people haven't gotten it. That's why they don't know how to give it and haven't been taught how to. Rachael Bosch: Yes. And so we default also to the safest. So even in the zone two, we default to corrective because people can't argue with us. It's yes or no. I absolutely am truly like I'm going to die on this hill. Good and bad feedback has nothing to do with the content. I want us to stop using that binary because it's not useful. Paula Edgar: Yeah. I love that breakdown of the framework and hearing it. Because again, we're talking about communication and language and using precise things for precise. It just makes it better so that we can, I think, also do and hear it better when we're not couching it as good or bad. So all y'all start, there'll be a test after this. So speaking of self-perception and alignment, tell me about Candorly, which is one of your innovations that you're very proud of. Tell us all about it. How did it come about? How can it help professionals to align their self-perception with how others experience them, which is essentially branding? Go ahead. Rachael Bosch: Truly, truly branding. I wasn't sure where this was going. I was already with my statistic. Most people think that they're self-aware. Ten to fifteen percent of the general population meet the clinical criteria. Thank you, Tasha Eurich. Yeah, no, we're real bad. We're real bad. Why are we so bad at understanding if our perception matches reality? Because we don't get enough feedback. So Candorly, Candorly is my love, my little project. It's not a little project anymore either. It's an entire entity. So when I started Fringe, I was doing coaching and training. Coaching world, those of you who are listening who might be coaches, you know or you've experienced coaching, if you're coaching somebody who's a manager or above, if they interface with other people, you usually want to start by gathering some feedback about that person. Or else you go in and the person's like, "I'm actually amazing." And as we just decided, most people, 90% of people, are not actually self-aware, so we can't trust that. We need to ground the coaching in some basis of reality. So we were doing all this. We were doing interviews, getting this feedback from people. And then I started getting asked, "Hey, could you do this for all of our leaders?" And like any good entrepreneur, my answer was yes, of course. [inaudible] How do I do that? I had a good idea, though, right? So it came from—and I think this is one of the things that kind of differentiates it from a lot of 360 feedback tool perception leadership tools—it came from the coaching work. So it is rooted in a place of better understanding of our impact on other people and better understanding of our alignment with other people. We started to grow it and then turned it into an entire platform. It is open right now. So we use it with our clients at Fringe, but any coach who wants to use it can absolutely use it. I think one of the best things about it is how we measure and convey that, what we call perception delta. A lot of people will call it a blind spot. Moving the needle away from ableism. To your point about accurate language, a blind spot, a perception gap, a perception delta, we know what that means. Those are two words that we know. So let's all start using more plain language too. So the perception delta has been such a powerful element in the tool. You get all sorts of feedback. Does this person mentor people? When you give feedback, does it help them perform? Do they understand what you mean when you communicate? All that standard stuff. But what we've seen over time is that that perception delta is probably one of the most powerful pieces. Even when we do this across an organization and we say, "Hey, you've got people who are really strong and then people who need some support, maybe," I think our default as people in thought work organizations is to think, "Oh, the people who are really strong got good scores. People who aren't got low scores." Okay, well riddle me this. Somebody gets the best scores out of the entire group. You have an entire partnership, maybe at a firm, and they have the top score feedback from other people, and their perception delta is huge. Are they a top performer? Paula Edgar: I think no. Well, I guess it depends. I'm thinking of this differently. Because I would think that the fact that they don't know—well, okay, I'm going to take this back. I would think that there's a challenge in the culture. Rachael Bosch: Could be. Paula Edgar: I would think that perhaps there's a challenge in the culture and that people are not actually answering properly if that's the case. Or that they are fine, and they could be much better. And so no matter what, we need to figure this out. But tell us what the actual answer is all the way. Rachael Bosch: It depends on the situation, and it's a couple of things, but I'll tell you the biggest thing for us, it's an indicator to look more. Because I'll tell you the biggest thing that you should—so perception delta is an interesting thing too. When you start looking at it, I'm going to get real nerdy for a second. I will go back out and go back to Bravo, don't worry. But perception delta, it isn't necessarily how big or small your number is. Because a "perfect" perception delta is zero, right? Which means that perception delta moves in two directions. I can have an overinflated sense of self. I rate myself higher than other people rate me. I don't want an underinflated sense of self. I rate myself lower than other people rate me. Both of them indicate different things. Paula Edgar: Right. Yes. Rachael Bosch: But if one is a negative three and one is a positive three, positive three is not better than negative. The delta, the difference from zero. How far are we moving from zero? Very few people, by the way, I think occasionally, on a question-by-question basis, we'll get somebody who's spot on. On the whole, it doesn't happen because none of us are. It tells you different things. So if you have the highest scores out of everyone in an entire group, underrated yourself, you are at risk of burnout, you probably are not taking care of yourself, you are probably very hard on yourself and run the risk, in a stressful situation, of being very hard on other people. Paula Edgar: So, I mean, I love that you went through that, even though I hate math and numbers, except $100 in my account. But the good part about that is that when it comes to, and I'm thinking about the tool in terms of its impact, potential impact on organizations, but also on individuals, is that you need to know in order to manage. Because then you can decide how you want to figure that out, if you want to figure it out, and then navigate those things. So no matter what you might think if you're listening to this, that gets good if they think better than me than I think about myself. But again, you still need to navigate that. That might be that inner work that you have to do, but it still needs to be that. I love, love, love that. It gives you, hopefully, some content for growth mindset, things that you can work on. None of us is perfect. Number one in the line of not perfection. But if we are wanting to understand that perception and to continue to work, to navigate it so that there is alignment, that's the work. So everybody go out and check out the website and figure it out. I know that you need it. I don't know who you are, but I know that you need it. So anyway, okay. I knew this conversation was going to go quickly. So obviously you have to come back so I can ask you all the rest of the questions. Rachael Bosch: Took this long to get me in the first time. Paula Edgar: I'm just saying that's why I'm maximizing the use of this time and energy for part one, the fringe, the initial fringe, and then the fringe, the remix. It's fine. Tell me this. Tell me this. You love pop culture, as we have heard already. Tell me why that's important to your professional trajectory. That connection to pop culture and it being important and staying aligned with that, how does that impact your professional trajectory other than the examples you use? Rachael Bosch: Well, that's it. So when you can tell, a lot of the stuff that we do can get really heady, get a little mathy, get a little neurosciency. That puts people off when they're afraid, when they don't understand. I can relate it back to a situation that you know, that you heard about, that you feel comfortable with. And that's not even big-scale stuff. I remember one of the first programs I did for a group of law firm partners, 2017. I am little baby professional entrepreneur out there. I had a slide, and I remember the person from the firm was like, "You're going to put that on the side?" I said, "Let me try it." Group of partners, pretty high up their firm. So some might think not really open to this. It was about expectations, the slide. The slide title was, Tell me what you want da-da-da. Paula Edgar: It's got to be, come on. Rachael Bosch: I had the room say back to me, and they did in full force with their whole chest. "What do you mean they want?" Yes. As it turns out, even the most [inaudible] people we work with live in this world and experience pop culture. Now of all of those people, because I did just want to do it right now, her ellipsis, "I have one daughter," no, you can't go too deep in the pop culture hole. But for the people who just got that, it makes things relatable going back to the very beginning. Are things interesting or are they useful? And if they're not relatable, if I can't really understand them, they're not useful. Culture helps and it takes down the barriers. We're all just people. Those partners thought that was hysterical. I used to have the missy principle, which is cognitive reappraisal. Because cognitive reappraisal, if you actually look at the white papers on cognitive reappraisal, there are three steps. You put this down, flip it, and you reverse it. Paula Edgar: I love it. I love it. I love it. And as I mentioned, this is going to go by quickly, so I'm holding you to a verbal, oral, and visual contract that you are going to have to come back and so I can ask you all other questions. But I feel like you answered one question I don't always ask about fun. It's clear, you guys don't need that question answered specifically. We already talked about it. But I do want to ask you this, which is, what is one aspect of your personal and professional brand that you'll never compromise on? Rachael Bosch: Humor. Paula Edgar: Awesome. Well, I'm not joking when I say I've had a very fun time talking to you for this fast and furious hour. I want you to tell everybody where they can find out more and connect with you. Rachael Bosch: I'm on the internet. I don't know if you've heard of it, but you can definitely find me there. It's fringepd.com. On LinkedIn, all over the LinkedIn at candorly.com. But I'm around. If you spell my name wrong when you email me, I'll still get it. So it's just for fringepd.com. Paula Edgar: Fabulous. It's been fabulous to have you here, and I can't wait to do it again. Everybody, don't forget to always give goodish feedback and stand by your brand. Bye, everybody. That's it for this episode. I appreciate you hanging out with me on Branding Room Only. Now, please do me a quick favor: head over to ratethispodcast.com/branding so more people can join this conversation. And make sure to stop by at paulaedgar.com/events to see what's next. Whether I'm live, online, or in person, I'd love to see you there. See you next time in the Branding Room. And until then, stand tall, shine bright, and always stand by your brand.