Wherever You Go, There You Are: Personal Branding and Dating Mindset with Francesca Hogi

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Description

Your personal brand is not limited to your LinkedIn profile, your networking skills, or how you show up at work. It is how people experience you in every room you enter, including your relationships, your dating life, your confidence, your boundaries, and the stories you tell yourself about your own worth.

In this episode of Branding Room Only, Paula T. Edgar sits down with love educator, coach, author, and two-time TED speaker Francesca Hogi for a candid conversation about the connection between personal branding, self-worth, dating, and authenticity. From her unconventional path from corporate law to matchmaking and coaching to her insights on modern dating culture, Francesca shares why so many people are taught to perform for acceptance instead of choosing themselves first.

Together, Paula and Francesca unpack the conditioning that teaches women to wait to be chosen, the difference between attraction and alignment, how relationship patterns often mirror professional patterns, and why discernment matters just as much in love as it does in business. They also dive into dating apps, intuition, confidence, loneliness, authenticity, and what it really means to bring your full self into every room you enter.

Honest, funny, reflective, and deeply relatable, this conversation will have you thinking differently about love, identity, and the way you move through the world.

Chapters

1:16 – What personal brand means to Francesca, how she’d describe herself, her lifelong motto, and why she calls herself “a weirdo” about music

5:37 – How growing up in New York City influenced Francesca’s understanding and appreciation of people

7:40 – The question Francesca hated being asked as a child, and how the only answer she had influenced her professional life (including her Survivor appearances)

13:41 – How matchmaker Paul C. Bunson initially introduced Francesca to personal branding and inspired her career pivot into love and relationships

16:31 – How love and dating connect to personal branding, self-worth, and what your romantic patterns reveal about how you actually see yourself

21:31 – The "pick me" conditioning that trains people to treat dating like a job pitch, and what it looks like to show up differently

27:10 – Why the list of must-haves for most dating people often has nothing to do with the relationship they want

36:26 – Why lack of discernment is one of the most common dating mistakes Francesca sees, what it looks like when you don’t have it, and what changes when you do

41:29 – Why you don’t need (and shouldn’t overly depend on) a dating app, and a mindset shift in meeting people organically

41:29 – Why you don't need a dating app to find love, and the mindset shift that opens up what Francesca calls the "meet cute" opportunity in everyday life

52:09 – One thing Francesca will never compromise on, and the magic she brings to a standing room only

Connect With Francesca Hogi

Francesca Hogi is a love coach, guide, speaker, and mentor for people who are ready to start a new chapter in dating, find meaningful relationships, and live in alignment with their deepest values. Through her coaching, writing, and community (The True Love Society), she helps people create relationships that feel fulfilling and true to who they are. She has shared this work with hundreds of thousands of people through her client work, events, courses, TED talks, Dear Franny podcast, and How to Find True Love book.

Before her journey into love and coaching, Francesca practiced corporate law for over a decade. She holds a B.S. in Producing for Electronic Media from Syracuse University and a J.D. from the University of Michigan Law School. And fun fact: she competed on two seasons of the iconic reality show Survivor.

Her website, book, TED Talk, podcast archive, and social media:

Francesca Hogi | Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn | YouTube

How to Find True Love: Unlock Your Romantic Flow and Create Lasting Relationships

“How to Unlock Your Flirting Superpowers” | TEDxTalk

Dear Franny podcast archives

Mentioned In Wherever You Go, There You Are: Personal Branding and Dating Mindset with Francesca Hogi

Paul C. Brunson | Twitter/X

The Matchmaking Institute

Curated Resources from Paula

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Learn More About Paula's Personal Branding Strategy Session Offer

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Sponsor for this episode

This episode is brought to you by PGE Consulting Group LLC.

PGE Consulting Group LLC empowers individuals and organizations to lead with purpose, presence, and impact. Specializing in leadership development and personal branding, we offer keynotes, custom programming, consulting, and strategic advising—all designed to elevate influence and performance at every level.

Founded and led by Paula Edgar, our work centers on practical strategies that enhance professional development, strengthen workplace culture, and drive meaningful, measurable change.

To learn more about Paula and her services, go to www.paulaedgar.com or contact her at info@paulaedgar.com, and follow Paula Edgar and the PGE Consulting Group LLC on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Paula Edgar: Welcome to Branding Room Only, the podcast where your personal brand gets a front row seat. I'm Paula Edgar and if you're here, it's because you know your brand isn't just about what you do. It's about how people experience you. In each episode, you'll hear stories, strategies and lessons from leaders and influencers, who built their brands and made their mark. And I'll share the tools you need to do the same. Let's go. Hi, everybody. It's Paula Edgar and welcome back to the Branding Room. I am very excited for my conversation today. Let me tell you about my guest. Francesca Hogi is a love educator, coach, two-time TED speaker and author of “How to Find True Love, Unlock Your Romantic Flow and Create Lasting Relationships|. A former corporate lawyer, Francesca pivoted to matchmaking and coaching and never looked back. She's passionate about empowering others to have the love they deserve inside and out. Francesca, welcome to the Branding Room. Francesca Hogi: Thank you so much for having me, Paula. I'm excited to be here. Paula Edgar: I am excited for this conversation. I have been wanting to talk a lot more about love and how it impacts our brand. And so let's jump in. I want to know about you first. What does personal brand mean to you and how would you define it? Francesca Hogi: So I was thinking about this the other day. So Paul Brunson, who you know as well, he's the first person I ever heard talk about personal branding. And he always said that your brand is what people say about you, when you're not in the room. And it's what I think is such a great definition. And it's not the one that we typically use. Paula Edgar: It's true, right? Because it’s one thing when you say something, it's another thing what sticks and what people say about you. Francesca Hogi: Yes. Paula Edgar: I love that. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So what are you known for? Right. What do people think of when they think of you? What… I think you can see that in the kinds of invitations that you receive, the kinds of introductions that you receive, people say, oh, you've got to meet this person because of X, Y, Z. And sometimes I'm like, oh, perfect. And other times I'm like, I don't get it. Paula Edgar: Where was the disconnect? How would you describe yourself in three words or short phrases? Francesca Hogi: Okay, good question. Three words or short phrases. I think that just in terms of my brand or me, I mean… Paula Edgar: However you think. Francesca Hogi: I guess it's the same thing. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: I'm very focused on empowerment. Right. So personally, I like to feel very empowered in my life. And that's something that really try to convey through my work, is a sense of empowerment. Like you are not helpless here. Also, I'm very curious. So I'm in life. I'm always look, I'm always like, oh, that's interesting, I wonder why they do it that way. And I've definitely translated that to my work with just… with dating and with romantic relationships in general. And just like, well, where does this come from or why do we do it this way? Or, you know, isn't that interesting that this person has this pattern? And what's at the root of that and how can we break through that? So I think that curiosity is something that's very much part of me. And also, I mean, I don't know. I think I'm kind of fun. Paula Edgar: You know, the funny thing is, is in my head, I always have words for the people who.. If I know them, I'm always like, OK, I know. But right, as you said, you said it, I was like thinking fun. Francesca Hogi: Oh, yay. Paula Edgar: I love the alignment, empowerment, curiosity and fun. All right. Do you have a favorite quote or motto that resonates for you right now? Francesca Hogi: Oh, I mean, my kind of lifelong motto is a steady drip can bore a hole through a rock. Paula Edgar: Oh, OK. Let me write that down. I can take that in so many different ways. But it’s consistency, right. It's small, small efforts will get you big results. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Determination. You know, I think if that… I think that's probably one of my superpowers is that I'm a very determined person and I'm patient. I'm like, if it's going to take me 10 years, that's just how long it's going to take me. But it's going to happen. Paula Edgar: I love that. What about this? What's your hype song? So when they're going to get full Franny on the stage, when you are going in and you mean business, what song is playing in your head? Or if you need to pick me up, what song are you using? It can be the same song or different songs. Francesca Hogi: OK, so I'm always, I'm a weirdo. Paula Edgar: OK, noted. Francesca Hogi: Because I don't generally like very upbeat songs. So to me, I'm like, I like sad songs. I'm like, I love a sad song. Give me a little Night Shift. Give me a little Midnight Train to Georgia. I like, I want something melancholy. I want to feel the pain. Paula Edgar: And at least hopefully be able to resonate. Be like, that's not me right now. So it's fine. Like that's your pick me up, is like, oh, she's having a hard time. Francesca Hogi: But I think I just… I think even heartbreak to me is beautiful, because it's like, oh, because it hurts, because you love them. Like, that's great. Paula Edgar: That's a wonderful way of reflecting on it. I need to be more positive. I like it. All right. So tell me about this. Where did you go up and how do you think that shaped you? Francesca Hogi: Oh, goodness. Well, I grew up in New York City. I grew up in the Bronx, in Manhattan. And it shaped me very much, because as positive as I am, I also don't mess with me. Paula Edgar: Yes. All day. Francesca Hogi: Because it can come out real quick. But I think that in addition to that, because that is real. In addition to that, also, I think it gave me a sense of… I mean, one thing I really appreciate growing up in New York. Like I really appreciate, I went to public school my whole life and I always went to school with every kind of person. I mean, I have friends who lived in projects. I had friends who lived in penthouses and everything in between. And I really appreciate that, because I just understand. I think it's given me an understanding of people and an appreciation of people, no matter where they come from. Like I remember when I went to college and I like my freshman roommate was like, oh, I've never met a Jewish person. And I'm like, wow, I'm so glad that there's no kind of person that I've never met. You know? Paula Edgar: Yes. Also projects, the penthouse is like the perfect way of describing New York City. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Paula Edgar: Somebody that's a book or like a short story. And I agree with you, although I grew up in New York City as well, in Brooklyn. And I went to boarding school. I remember thinking there's a ton of people who I have not met, a ton of things that I did not know, even though it was more about me being able to be open to having met them and what I've experienced from them, when I was here. I was not sort of conscious to how much diversity we had here, especially socioeconomic. I was like, so going to boarding school, I was like, oh, this is different than what I have been used to, which I appreciate. Shout out to Deerfield Academy. OK, so you started your career as a corporate lawyer and then you made this major pivot into matchmaking, coaching and love education. Can you walk us through that professional journey? Francesca Hogi: Yes. So I was one of those kids growing up. I hated when people would say, what do you want to be when you grow up? Like I hated that question. I'm like, can we stop asking children that question? Paula Edgar: We really do need to stop. Francesca Hogi: And I hated it, because I had no idea. It was just, I was like, I just had no idea. And all that I knew was that I wanted to have and this is no offense to anyone, but this is just how my childhood mind thought of it, is, I didn't want to have a, quote, ordinary life. Like the idea of just like, you know, getting married, having kids, having a job, going to and from work every day. Like I was like, no, I won't do that. So I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I know what I'm not going to do. And in my just not knowing what to do, I had a lot of people say to me, you should think about law school, because you can… you know, you're smart, you can do anything with a law degree. So I was like, OK, sure, I'll go to law school. So I went to law school, not ever actually wanting to be a lawyer or caring about the law. I literally went to law school, because I didn't know what else to do. And I enjoyed law school, by the way. And but then I was a lawyer and I was like, oh, well, everybody said I could be anything, but now I'm a lawyer. And I looked around at the, you know, the partners at my firm and I was like, I don't want their lives. You know, I don't want their lives. And I realized if you don't want your boss's life, then you're in the wrong job. Paula Edgar: Oh, there's a quote. Francesca Hogi: Right. And so I was like, OK, so it took me a while. So I stayed in the law for a few years initially, because I was like, well, I didn't know what else to do. And I had loans and I had a big salary and I had, you know, I was like, well, let me let me not be a total idiot here. And but then I… I mean, let me tell you the shorter version of the story, because I actually… The first time I left the law, I went into the movie business. So there was a whole other chapter. Paula Edgar: Okay. Francesca Hogi: So I was in New York working at a big firm, in New York. After four years, I quit. I moved to LA and I started a film production company with one of my friends from law school. And I had this whole Hollywood chapter of my life. Paula Edgar: OK, I don't think I knew this. Francesca Hogi: And I don't talk about it. And it's also… it was like right… It was before it was like 2004 to 2009. So this was like, you know, this is before Instagram. This is before, you know, so this was like you just got to live. You know what I mean? Remember those days? Paula Edgar: I do. Francesca Hogi: But we just got to live. Paula Edgar: You didn't document everything. Francesca Hogi: Not everything was documented. So that was my life for five years in LA and I ran out of money, because I wasn't making any money. I was living off of my savings. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: And I was like, OK, well, I got to make money. You know, I mean, so I got sucked back into the law, because I was like, I mean, I could go work at the Gap. But that seems like maybe not a good use of my time. I didn't know if, you know, I was stuck, Paula, I didn't know what to do. Paula Edgar: OK, so you decided not… against the Gap and then where did you go? Francesca Hogi: So then I went back into the law and I came back to New York, because then I was in a relationship and my partner was here. And so I got stuck back into New York and then I went on Survivor. And then that was… Paula Edgar: We were not going to.. We got to pause. And then you went on Survivor. Francesca Hogi: Yes, I know. And the only reason I went on Survivor, it was not… It was because I was at this time in my life where I was like, I don't know what to do. And, you know, I'm back practicing law, which I didn't want to do. And I was just like, you know, the Survivor presented itself as an opportunity. And I was like, it's kind of like law school. I'm like, I don't really want to do it. But like, what else am I going to do? I was like, it's not my dream, but it's somebody's dream. So I should do this. So I went on Survivor and that was a disaster. Went back to my same law job. It was a disaster. Oh, well, well, Paula, funny you should ask. Paula Edgar: Tell the people, tell the people. Francesca Hogi: I was the first person voted off of my season, but it wasn't just a regular vote off. It was like spectacular fiasco situation. So then two years later, they invited me to come back for a second season. And again, I was like, oh, I still don't want to do this. But I was in my same law job and I was still like waiting to shake things up in my life. You know, I'm in my mid 30s at this point. And and I was like, all right, well, it can't be worse than the first time. Famous last words… Paula Edgar: I'm going to say. Francesca Hogi: But as it turns out, it was actually worse than the first time. So after that, I was like, OK, universe that now this is a pattern. And I am so sick of not knowing what to do. Like I've been in this limbo for years and I was like, OK, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I know this isn't it. And I need to figure it out. And then also shortly after I came back from my second season, my brother died of a heart attack very suddenly, a week before his 40th birthday. And so I was like, oh, life is really like this is my actual life. And what am I doing with it? And like I was like, I could die tomorrow. Like this is… this is not, you know, because, you know, in life you just feel like, oh, you've got all this time and you feel like you're rehearsing for life. But it's like, no, no, this is your life. Right. This is it. And so I went to a Fourth of July barbecue. I met a woman at this barbecue, who mentioned that she followed a Black male matchmaker named Paul C. Brunson on Twitter. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Paula Edgar: Who? Who? Francesca Hogi: I took out my phone and I followed him on Twitter. And one thing that I should say before this, is that actually when I was living in LA, the first time I lived in LA, in my Hollywood years, I actually had a friend who started a blog called “Interesting Black Women” and she invited me to contribute to the blog and she said, you can write about the law. And I was like, oh, I'm not writing about the law in my spare time. And she's like, oh, you can write about whatever you want. I was like, OK, well, the only thing I could think that I would want to write about is dating. And she's like, OK, so write about dating. So I did have that inclination. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Right. And I had been on this long love journey of having to teach myself how to date and going through all this drama and like wanting love. So love was a thing that was at the forefront of my life. Right. So I started following Paul and I just liked what he had to say. And I was like, I really like this man. And I really related to him, because he, you know, he'd had an MBA and he was an investment banker and he left that to start his matchmaking business. And one day he tweeted that he was going to be speaking at the Matchmaking Institute Conference in New York. And I was like, I'm sorry. There's a what? And a what? And I responded to his tweet and I said, I want to come. And he said, you should come. And I was like, OK, I'll take that as an invitation. And I went to this conference and I met all these people, including Paul, who were just regular people. But it was their job to help other people find love. And I was like, OK, what could be more rewarding than that? What could be more rewarding than that? Right. Because I liked the client service aspect of being a lawyer. Like I liked client has a problem. You solve problem. That part felt good. I just didn't care enough about… the fact was my clients were all corporations. Paula Edgar: That part. Francesca Hogi: I was like, I mean, I want to help people solve problems, but I'm not anti-corporation. I just that was not my ministry. Right. Paula Edgar: Right. Francesca Hogi: And I knew it. So I was like, oh, this is, these are problems I can solve. This is something I can get excited about. And so that was the start. Paula Edgar: OK, so first of all, that was probably one of my favorite detailing of career. When people think about personal branding, they think about their careers. They think about like LinkedIn visibility and their reputation. But you focus on love and relationships. How do you see love and dating connected to personal branding? Francesca Hogi: I love you, Paula, you are like, I got a question for you, girl. Paula Edgar: Think about it. What do you think? Francesca Hogi: Well, this is how I think that they're connected. I think and increasingly so, because we live in a world, where there is less and less separation between who you are in your personal life and who you are in your professional life. A Paula Edgar: True. Francesca Hogi: And there used to be a time when that was not the case. Right. There used to be a time where you like you leave work at five o'clock and you could be a… nobody at work knows anything that you do in your personal life. Right. And those things could be very siloed. And so for me, I think. And that's also one of the reasons why, even though I worked in corporate America for a long time, I was always a bit of a rebel, because I was like, I can't just be what these people want me to be. I have to be myself. I don't know. I can't do anything else. I can't do anything else. Right. And so I was a little ahead of the curve on this, because I'm just like, I've always been like, if you like, if you're my partner romantically, you need to be able to be with my family. You need to be able to be with my friends. You need to be with my colleagues. You need to be, like everybody needs to be together, because I'm not cutting myself into pieces to be one person here and one person here and one person there. So I think that ideally we're all living our lives in a very holistic way, where when somebody asks you a question like you asked me, like, can you describe yourself, you know, in three words or three phrases that your romantic partner would be like, yes, that's who they are. And the people you work with would be like, yes, that's who they are. And your friends would be like, yes, that's who they are. You know what I mean? Paula Edgar: So I love it. Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. So I think and I think that's how we have better relationships, is when we are bringing our full selves to everything. So for me, that answer is who… wherever you go, there you are. So bring your full self to every place that you go. Paula Edgar: Love it. Do you think that the way we show up in dating reflects the way we see ourselves and our own worth? Francesca Hogi: Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. That's where that's where you're going to find out. You're like, you know, you think you're so confident and you think you like, you know, and then you start dating somebody and then all the insecurities come up. And now you're like, OK, well, they said they didn't like this. And now should I change it? And all of this. So I think, yes, romantic love is very, very triggering of our deepest insecurities, our beliefs about ourselves. It puts all of that… shines a spotlight on all of that, which is why it is one of the more fraught relationship dynamics that we experience, because it is so deep and it brings up a lot of things that other types of relationships typically don't. And so they provide an amazing mirror and way for us to learn about ourselves. But, yes, if you fundamentally believe that, you know, you're not lovable or that you're too much or that it's going to take a miracle for anybody to love you, or that people always let you down, or that you always let people down or, you know, all of the things that is so easy to believe in life. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: That is going to come into your dating experience and that is going to come into your romantic relationships. And it's going to, I mean, I don't like to say these things like it's a matter of us being perfect, because we're not meant to be perfect. We're human. We're never going to be perfect because we're human. So perfection is not the goal, but it is worth just looking at, OK, what is the baseline of my relationship with myself? Right. Like, do I actually see myself as somebody who deserves love, consistency, kindness, respect, or do I think I have to earn those things? Right. And even asking that question is such a powerful… it's actually a very loving thing to do, to even ask yourself those tough questions. But it can feel very difficult. So I always preach the gospel of self-compassion. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Right. And which is an act of self-love, just to be, I'm just going to be compassionate towards myself. I'm going to be compassionately curious. Paula Edgar: Oh, I like that. Yes. Francesca Hogi: So I call it self-compassionate curiosity. And I'm going to just ask myself, OK, isn't it interesting that every person I'm attracted to treats me like X, Y, Z? Or isn't it interesting that in all of my relationships, this same pattern plays out? Or isn't it interesting that I only like somebody until they like me and now I don't like them anymore? Paula Edgar: First of all, I am being triggered on behalf of my listeners right now. I'm like, oh, no. Oh, no. I just think some of the people and things that I've heard, you know, I often will say two things. One, that I would be fraught if I had to date right now. Like, I'm not I'm not a dater. I've never been a dater. I've been a relationship. And I've been married for 23 years. And when I think about dating right now, I'm like, oh, my gosh, because it's like you having to pitch yourself over and over and over again. And that thought to me is like, oh, no, no, no, no. Like choose me. I don't want to do other stuff. But when I think about this and how branding, because, you know, we're talking about what love shows up, it's what you see, right, like the attraction part and then what you learn, when you have had the opportunity to to interact and engage. And I do think and I want to hear what you think about this, that up front, people are trying to show their best selves. Right. They're coming in with shiny. You're never going to see non-makeup Paula first. You're going to see makeup Paula first. What are your thoughts about sort of approaching? Let's say somebody's on here and they're thinking about approaching the process of wanting to date. And how they show up, like what? I don't know what… I know if there's a question there. Francesca Hogi: There is a question, I understand what you mean. Yeah, I understand. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: I'm picking up what you're putting down. So the idea that, like you said, oh, you got to pitch yourself over again and over and over and over again. I do not think of dating that way. Paula Edgar: Good. Francesca Hogi: I do not think of dating as you are going and now you're like, OK, I got to put my best foot forward and I got to like pitch myself and like make this person want me. And that is very much how we have been conditioned, especially as women. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: Right. We have been conditioned to be chosen. And if your whole romantic identity is I need to be chosen, then you are going to see yourself as I'm always pitching myself. And I got to be made up and I got to be this and I got to be that. And like the number of women who will say to me, because I'm very big on people meeting in real life organically, like as you live your life. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: And the number of times someone will say to me, but I wasn't looking cute, like I saw this guy, but I wasn't looking cute. I'm like, what do you mean you weren't… you are you, it doesn't matter. Like I'm like, actually, I think meeting somebody with no makeup on is a great way to meet somebody. Paula Edgar: Especially if they still like you. Francesca Hogi: Okay. Like, why do you want to like, you know, I'm like, you don't… Anyway, I can go on about that. I'm like, why? Why would you hold yourself back and think like, oh, if I'm not made up, then I can't meet somebody. Why? You're still you. You're still beautiful. Your makeup doesn't make you beautiful. That's just putting a bow. Right. And then one day he's going to see you with makeup on and he's going to be like, oh, look at you. And it's going to be great. You got a bow on. Right. So I think even just, you know, one of the reasons and like in my book, I start with mindset, because how we even think about love, is going to dictate so much of what happens after that. Right. So if you think about love is I have to be chosen. Now you are censoring what other people think of you more than you're censoring being yourself. Right. So you can absolutely do that. But what kinds of relationship dynamics is that going to lead to and who are the kinds of people that are going to be a fit for that? Because if you are a woman who thinks you need to be chosen, then you're going to be with a man who thinks he chose you. Therefore, you need to be grateful. And therefore, you're the one who has to keep proving your worth here. Paula Edgar: I'm sorry. Clearly, I did not know I was going to turn into a therapy session. But I just think about young Paula. And when I was in different situation relationships, I was in the space of wanting to be chosen. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, me too. Paula Edgar: And your point about societally as women, that that's kind of how we are conditioned. And imagine how freeing it would be to just be like, I should be chosen. I am the person. I don't need to be chosen. I'm just showing up as myself. Francesca Hogi: I choose me. I choose myself. And now I get to find somebody who I… do I want him. Like I have the prize. So like, do I want him? Do we choose each other? Paula Edgar: Yeah. You know, I mean, even as confident as I am and my father will tell you, I always have been, that my mother, my mother was killed in 9-11. And the day before she was killed, she said, you stop wasting your time with this guy that you're dating. Like that is literally the last thing she said to me. And it took her saying that for me to be able to say, let me let go of my ego, because that was so… and my pride. And just shut down this thing that I knew was not working for me, because I had been chosen. You know, and so when that really resonates to thinking about choosing yourself first and then people then come to you. And to your point about losing your brother and knowing that life is short. As soon as I had that pivot, like having lost my mother, I was like, I cannot live life in a way that is not… that's frivolous, because I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. And it was literally then that my, I think, soul opened and my husband came back into my life. It was literally that to say, like, oh, no, I have chosen myself. I'm going to go gallop and do all the things. And then he came into my life. And we, particularly folks, I think, who have been and are lawyers, a lot of my listeners are lawyers, we have control issues. Like we're control people. We want to have it the way we want to have it. And there's a freedom, I think, in letting go and seeing what happens, but also being intentional. And when I think about the dating process and even the love matchmaking, do you start with, you said you start with the self. But is it that you are also setting intentions for what it is you're trying to get out of the situation? Or maybe I should ask a better question, which is what's walking through my process. If I'm going to come to you and I'm like, Fannie, I need a man. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, I mean, it's like, OK, we'll paint a picture, right? Paula Edgar: Of the man? Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Like I actually, like I actually say if I had a magic wand and I could just give you any anybody you wanted, any relationship, you know, type of relationship you wanted. What would that look like? And so let's start there. Right. And that part is usually pretty easy for people, because it's like, oh, magic wand. Right. And then it's like, OK, well, now that we have the magic wand scenario, let's actually talk about how many of these things are truly a priority for you. Right. And sometimes it's like all of them. That's it. That's, I gave you the list. But, you know, I always say that the list can have… you can have a thousand things on your list that you want in a partner. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: And that's fine. But for all… But first of all, you can't not prioritize them equally. OK, because that's not a real person. Paula Edgar: So it's just not going to be like… Francesca Hogi: Right. It's just Elba, but make him a billionaire and a rocket scientist and the best.. And you know it's like, guess what? It doesn't work that way. You can't prioritize them all equally. And I always have my clients go through everything on that list and one by one and say why, why they want that. What that has to do with the relationship that they want. Paula Edgar: Oh, I mean, a little bit challenging. Francesca Hogi: And because, again, and I'm not judging your answer. I just want you to be able to articulate for yourself why that is important. Paula Edgar: Yeah, yeah. Francesca Hogi: And oftentimes when you start doing that, you start realizing, hmm, first of all, I'm making some assumptions here. Like I mean, like the simplest answer, I've heard this a million times. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Is women, because everybody wants a tall man. Right. And to varying degrees, to varying degrees of tall. So I was like, he's got to be at least six feet. So I was like, I'd be at least six, two. So I was like, I want him six, four. I mean, I've heard it all. And so I say, OK, well, why? Just tell me why. And they'll usually say, well, because first of all, say, well, then I can wear heels. Hmm. I'm like, well, you could wear heels anyway. Right. But usually they'll say something like, well, then then I'll feel feminine. Right. It's like, OK, let's put a pin in that. We're coming back to that one. Or they'll say, then he'll be able to protect me. Those are the main things that I hear. Paula Edgar: OK, there's no six foot punks out there. Francesca Hogi: I'm like, OK, so is it objectively true that all men who are above six feet tall are protective of women? Paula Edgar: Right. Right. It's not true. Francesca Hogi: Right. And is it true that all men who are under six feet are not protective of women? Right. So if you actually want a man who's protective, then say you want a man who's protective. Because if you're chasing a height. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Thinking, using the height as a proxy for protection. What are you doing? Paula Edgar: I know some of y'all are shaking your head right now. I could just see, people are like, Oh, no, but... Francesca Hogi: But the point is, my point is not that it means that I'm saying you've got to go be with somebody who's 5”2. That's not even the point of what I'm saying. The point is to start to think about what am I actually prioritizing that has to do with the relationship that I want to have with this person? Because it's very easy to get caught up on the list. I want somebody who looks like all this and has all these things in this level of education and this level of money. But what is the actual relationship that you want to have with that person? Because, you know, money is another thing. Oh, if a man… if he makes X amount of money, then he won't be intimidated by my money, or then he'll be generous. I'm like, I'm sorry. First of all, these numbers tend to be pretty random. Like 250 is that's like everybody's number right now. Paula Edgar: Is it? Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Everybody's like, I want a man who makes two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year. I'm like, OK. Anyway, and then I'm like, OK, well, why? And then a lot of times you'll see that they actually don't even understand what that translates into until like real dollars. But that's another conversation. Paula Edgar: I live in New York because I mean, they still don't have any money. Francesca Hogi: You know, they're like, oh, because then I can get this and then I can get it. And I'm like, do you understand about taxes? Don't you want a man who has some like sense about himself financially? So he's not spending every dime he makes. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: Optimally. Paula Edgar: Savings are good. Francesca Hogi: There's savings, there's investments, there's right. So like that's even that it's like even if you're focused, even if the man makes twenty five million dollars, there are plenty of people who've made twenty five million dollars have gone broke. It's really easy to go broke at twenty five million dollars, because you feel like you have so much money you can buy everything. Right. And so even the money thing, it's like, OK, so what you're telling me, because when we really talk about it, it's like you want a man who, first of all, is financially stable, which is not necessarily tied to his income. Paula Edgar: Right, right. Francesca Hogi: Right. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: And you want a man who's responsible with money, which, again, is not tied to his income. And you want a man who's not intimidated by your success, which is not tied to his income. Paula Edgar: Yeah, yes. Francesca Hogi: In any way, shape or form. Paula Edgar: I can tell this process is one people really have to come. Like it's it sounds very, like I can imagine people walking away damn, I hadn't thought about the things. Right. And I can just already think to myself, just the couple of questions that you even shared, take you to a place of self-reflection and self-awareness that we often don't sit in. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. And it's not our fault, because we need… again, romantic love, we get all this conditioning. It's supposed to be this magical, perfect thing. This person is supposed to rescue you. We all grew up with the fairy tales and the rom-coms and all of the advertising and all the marketing that's told us. And by the way, as women, there was… wasn't very long ago where you did need a man who was going to provide for you financially, who was good and all of those things. And I again, I'm not saying I mean, I've never dated a broke man. OK, so I don't even understand that. Paula Edgar: That's why… don't you. Francesca Hogi: My point is not you got to date a broke man. OK. Paula Edgar: LOL. And having standards is important. Francesca Hogi: And that is not my point. Also, what's also interesting, though, is that I've never dated a broke man and I've never in my mind ever been like I need to date a man with money. Never said that. I've never said that. Paula Edgar: Yeah, yes. Francesca Hogi: Because what I did say was like, I need to date a man who does something meaningful in the world that he cares about. I need to date a man who's responsible. I need to date a man who has his shit together. If I can say that on this podcast. I mean, you know what I mean? Like I need to date a man who has his own passions, who's very smart. I like to me… like you've got to be I always need a man who's so smart that I'm like, wow, how does your brain work? Like I'm fascinated. Right. Paula Edgar: They feel sexual. Right. Francesca Hogi: Yes. And it turns out that those men tend to be successful in life. Paula Edgar: Yeah. And I think also it speaks to what your values are for you. Right. And what you're looking for. And I like that you parse it out as opposed to like, yes, the checklist is a thing. But getting underneath the checklist is a much more important, I think, exercise for those of you out there, who are listening. Francesca Hogi: Also eliminates the sense of scarcity that you can feel when you're just focused on. He's got to make this much money and he's got to be this tall and he's got to have…And then it's like, yeah, there aren't that many people who meet that exact criteria. Right. Paula Edgar: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: But I actually want to be with somebody who is responsible, who adores me, who supports me, who we have great conversations, who we can have… Then it's like, oh, OK, now we're opening up the set. We're opening up the possibility. Right. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: Like we can start to imagine, OK, there are people in this world who can do that, who can be that partner for me. Paula Edgar: What are some of the mistakes that people make when they're dating? What are some of your favorite mistakes that you see or have heard of or are frustrated by in dating? Francesca Hogi: I mean, I think I actually just recorded a video about this this morning, which is people lacking discernment. Paula Edgar: Period. Francesca Hogi: Period. And really just leaving a lot of, I think there's a lot of people, who… I don't think, I see that there are a lot of people who accept a lot of confusion and like just things that don't feel right in dating, in the name of being open, or they like this person and they want it to work out. So they're just going to keep going, even though things are not adding up, contradictions are being made, you know, like. But then it's like, but I want to hang in there and I want to figure out and I want to get the answers. And so I see a lot of people wasting their own time. Because they are accepting, like you shouldn't be confused. You shouldn't be confused. Paula Edgar: Either they're interested or not. Francesca Hogi: I mean, either and I don't even want to say about interest or not, because, again, as women, we're like, oh, but I know he likes me. Right. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: Because when we're together, he may be in love with you. Right. But if he can't, but if he cannot show up with consistency. Right. If he can't say, if you know that you want a committed relationship and he doesn't want that, or he doesn't know if he wants that, or if you know all of the… like, you have to look at the reality of the situation. It's not just about how somebody feels about you. It's about how they treat you and it's about the quality of the relationship that you have with that person. Paula Edgar: There's a clip right there. It's so true. I know so many people who want love and will take less, will settle for less, because the desire to be loved overrides the common sense of how they want to be treated in the world. Yeah. OK, what else? Francesca Hogi: It's really common. So I'd say, yeah, so that, you know, not not being discerning, also just not listening to your intuition. That's the other thing. That's another problem, when you have… when you're very attached to a list. Is that you start to override your intuition in any way. Like you might meet somebody and they aren't everything on the list and there's something there. But you're like, no, no, no, no, because they're not what I'm looking for. Right. Paula Edgar: You're blocking your own blessings. Francesca Hogi: You're blocking your own blessings. And by the way, I have done this. I get it. I have totally…. So I have totally done this. I have, you know, I had a list, back when I was a young lawyer, I had my list and this is who he needed to be. And one of the things for me was that he needed to be Black. I was like, I'm only dating Black men. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: And I had non-Black men, who were like, hi, I like you. I want to take you out to dinner. I want to get to know you better. And I'm like, no. And I'm like, do you have a Black best friend? And I'm like chasing after this guy who's like he's like, I got 10 women to choose from. I don't know. Makes you one of the roster. We'll see what happens. Right. And I'm not saying this is not to say all white men are… I'm not saying that. But my point was that that's an example of how I had to look and I had to be like, wait, you know what? That guy actually really liked me. Like, and he really tried to date me. And I really would not even consider it, because I just automatically he wasn't Black and therefore I wasn't. So I think you just have to start to ask yourself, what are some of the ways in which I'm shutting things off, without actually taking the person as like for who they are and just evaluating them for who they are, versus like the idea of who I think I should be with. Right. Paula Edgar: I know that hurt. Francesca Hogi: I mean, yeah, there's a lot of people in relationships with people who they're like, oh, I never would have thought this is the kind of person that I would be with. But I could not be happier. Right. Paula Edgar: Raising my hand, y'all. Francesca Hogi: Right. I could not be happier. Like I thought I needed X, Y, Z. Turns out this is exactly what I need. So I believe that everyone, I believe that true love is available to every single person, who desires it. I truly believe that. But does it look the way that every single person has been conditioned to think that it looks? No. Paula Edgar: We are in a loneliness crisis. Francesca Hogi: We are. Paula Edgar: Just because we have all these gadgets, like people and people aren't people in the way that they used to be people, because they'd be outside, et cetera. And in my side gig, as love Coach Paula. I tell people who are looking to date. I'm like, you know, you've got to go outside. You need to be to outside meet the folks. What are some of the things, besides not assessing correctly, or deeply enough, that people are doing currently that you've seen patterns of that are impacting their dating options? Francesca Hogi: Yeah. I mean, this is the other video that I recorded this morning. Paula Edgar: Good job, we’re aligned. Francesca Hogi: I think there's… people are leaving so much opportunity on the table, just by being overly dependent on dating apps. Like the number of people who say to me, I want to date, but I don't want to be on a dating app. I'm like, then date. Why are we… like dating app, why are we giving… We should not be giving any technology platform this much power over your love life. A dating app that makes money the longer that you are single and on the app. That's what you're putting in charge of your dating life. We can't do that, people. Paula Edgar: And let's just keep it all the way real. From a brand perspective, when I have looked at some people who want to date, their profiles on these dating apps, I'm like, you want to date? You ant people to… Because again, it's literally a pick me. But I have found people have been so terrible at the pictures that they choose, at the answers to the questions. It's like, oh, what? Francesca Hogi: I know. Most people are so bad at it. And some of them are bad at it, in the way of like, these are horrible pictures, or what are you even saying? Some people are bad in that way. Those are mostly men. Paula Edgar: Yes, agreed. Francesca Hogi: Men are really bad at this. The number of men who I've been like, I am taking new pictures of you right now. I'm not doing anything else. Because what is this? Paula Edgar: I have snatched the phone of two in my day to be like, hello. Francesca Hogi: It's like, it's crazy. Paula Edgar: Who's on with that? So now I'm thinking you're dating somebody. Francesca Hogi: And they're just like, they just need to see what I look like. They don't care. I'm like, yes, they do care. What kind of serial killer photos are these? So that's mostly men. But I see a lot of women, because of the pick me conditioning. If I were to look at women who are coming to me, women who are coming to you, women who are looking for a serious, committed partnership. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: Their profiles are indistinguishable from somebody who's looking for a hookup. Paula Edgar: Yes. Especially in the pictures. Francesca Hogi: That's a problem. Paula Edgar: I mean that is so clutch what you're saying right now. I just, you know, it really is. I'm reflecting on this, because I have, you know, I obviously, I leave the paid services to people who do this. But I love, I want people, who I love to be loved. And so when I say like, oh, let me see your profile. And I'm like, oh my God, this is terrible. Why did you choose that picture? Or girl, do you know what… And it's both men and women who I have done this with, in terms of my friend group. And it really is a result, I think, of how social media has become a thing for us so that we are so used to putting out X and saying things. But my thought about it is that when you mess it up, if you had a choice and this is a choice that you're making, then I'm thinking you're choosing to show up like this. I definitely don't want to talk to you, or reach out to you, because ugh, this is what you're choosing. So that self-awareness and that self-love and the being thoughtful about how you're showing up, in terms of branding is so important. It's like you're choosing to be on an app. But I'm encouraging y'all to go outside. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, go outside. Go outside. You know, I call it the meet cute mindset, which is the belief that every time you leave your house, you have the potential to meet someone special. Paula Edgar: Yes. Francesca Hogi: You do. Paula Edgar: I love that. Francesca Hogi: You do. And so if you can embrace that, then how might that change how you show up in the world? Paula Edgar: Better outfits, y'all. Come on. Francesca Hogi: Maybe better outfits, or maybe just better outfits, if that's going to give you the confidence to be open. Right. But I don't think anybody needs to be dolled up. Right. Paula Edgar: Right. Just think, I might meet the person today. I don't need you to be, but I think that might make you a little pep in your step. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. And if it makes you say, okay, well, I'm going to put on some red lipstick. Okay, cute. Go for your red lipstick. It'd be like, oh, I'm going to wear this dress, this outfit that makes me feel great. Do that. I want everybody to do what makes them feel good every single day. Paula Edgar: Right. Francesca Hogi: But it’s more about a mindset of like, okay, well, then what do you do? If you were at the supermarket and you saw somebody who looked interesting to you, who looked attractive, who looked intriguing, what would you do? And a lot of times the answer is I wouldn't do anything, or I would hope that they noticed me, or I would hope that they approached me. And so then what I like to say is to say, this is a little hypothetical challenge I like to give people. Imagine that I am a benevolent billionaire. Okay. Paula Edgar: I like it already. Go ahead. Francesca Hogi: And I want to motivate you to, I want to motivate you to have the love that you want. So I'm going to give you $1 million for every person who you go on a date with that you meet organically in your life, off of an app, just going in person over the next 30 days. How much money are you getting? Paula Edgar: Oh, y'all, I know that some people just felt that oomph just now, because y'all were like $5. Exactly $5. Now I can imagine people who are self-professed introverts thinking, I can't do that. Francesca Hogi: Okay. I got something for the introverts. So being introverted is a bonus in flirting. Okay. Because people who are very extroverted sometimes have the problem of, because they're so extroverted and their extroversion really comes across. So when they're giving somebody attention, it doesn't feel special. Because ultimately the foundation of flirting is to make another person feel seen, special and acknowledged. That's the foundation. You can label on top of that desirable, you can label, layer on top of that desired by you specifically. But just, when we're talking about this foundational element, do I know how to make another person feel seen, special and acknowledged? And people who are very extroverted do that so well that it doesn't necessarily feel special if they're talking to you. Whereas if somebody is more introverted, but they still say, hi, or they still say, wow, those are cool shoes, or whatever they say. It's like, oh, you're, it's going to feel special, because you can feel that that person made an effort. Paula Edgar: So is that what you should say? Those are cool shoes. Francesca Hogi: I mean, I really do. Everybody should watch my most recent Ted talk, how to unlock your flirting superpowers. Paula Edgar: I'm putting them in the show notes. Francesca Hogi: But compliments are a really great way to meet people in passing, because, you know, you can just give someone a compliment and just, it's not, you know, they can just say thank you. Like it's so, but it can also be like, because I've given this assignment to women clients before. I'll be like, okay, this week, every day, I want you to find one man to give a compliment to and just give a compliment and just keep it, walk it, keep on moving. And nine times out of 10, they will have at least one man who's like, wait, come back… don’t move, stay, back here. Paula Edgar: I love it. Francesca Hogi: Because men don't get a lot of compliments. They don't get a lot of compliments. So as a woman, if you give a man a compliment and I'm, and I don't, and I should also say these compliments should not be you're sexy. You're fine. Paula Edgar: Hey Boo… Francesca Hogi: No, don't go there, because now you're jumping into the desirability and desired part. And you're skipping over the, like, okay, can it just the basic rapport of, you know what I'm saying? You're not hitting on this person, because you could talk to them for two minutes and then be like, okay, well, bye. I'm done now. Right. You know what I'm saying? So the goal is not to wait until you see somebody you're like, oh my God, this person is so hot. And now it's just to normalize it. Just moving through the world in that way. And then you make somebody's day. Right. And sometimes just literally just looking somebody in the eye and saying hi is enough to just, to let somebody who… because here's the other thing that women have to understand. Because everybody wants the guy who has the swagger and he's going to come across the room and it doesn't matter that you're with 10 of your girlfriends. He's going to be like you, I want you. Right. But the reality is that the kinds of guys who do that tend to be more players. Right. And to them it's more a sport and it's fun and it's an ego boost and they enjoy that process of, Ooh, I got this girl to like me. Right. And so you just have to understand that if that's what you are, that's the only thing you're available for, then that’s the only thing you’re available for. Paula Edgar: That part. Francesca Hogi: Right. Versus a guy who was a good guy, who doesn't want to come across as a creep, who doesn't want to make you feel uncomfortable. Who doesn't want to… like that man needs a little bit, generally speaking, a little bit more of an invitation. Just an invitation doesn't mean like, Hey big boy. It just means like, hi, I said hi to you. So maybe you'd be like, okay, you know what? If I say something more, if I start a conversation with her, maybe she won't mind. Because she said hi, you know? Paula Edgar: Right. Francesca Hogi: So I, just… just simple things. And then like, I don't know, go to date… go to dating events, ask your friends for setups, you know, like just start expanding your social circle. Listen to your intuition. If there's this restaurant that you've been like, every time you go by it, you're like, I want to go to that restaurant one day, go to that restaurant. Maybe you're going to meet your boo there. Paula Edgar: I have told y'all on the podcast before, I'm going to tell you again, and I'm not a paid sponsor of Del Frisco restaurant, but in any city, where there's Del Frisco, you go sit at the bar. If you were looking to meet somebody, most of the time they are in a business center. Guys like steak, guys like drinks. So I have seen lots of loving happening. I don't know if it's loving them just for that day or living forever, but I am telling you, it's a great place to start a conversation. And just to, if you're an extrovert, I just love to go in there and sit in and chatting up with people. So Del Frisco, at some point you should just give me a meal based on this. Funny, I knew this conversation was going to go by super quickly, because I knew we're going to have fun talking about this stuff. I want to ask you, before we leave, I have two questions that I ask everybody. First is this, I call it the stand by your brand. What is the authentic aspect of your personal brand that you will never compromise on? Francesca Hogi: Oh, I mean, I'll never compromise it on it actually being a reflection of who I am. I mean, that's it. I mean, I could… I could do a lot of things like, you know, like I don't look like a love coach. Paula Edgar: … look for a love coach… Francesca Hogi: You know what I mean? Like if you ever go to my website and it's like and this is no shade to anybody else. It's just not me. And if it's like fuchsia and flowers and hearts and, you know, I'm going to help you meet your Prince charming. The aliens have taken over. That is not me. Paula Edgar: You have been kidnapped, the web designer took over. Francesca Hogi: That is not me. This is not my style. So yeah, just anything that's like, you know, because you could say, oh, you're… and I've had so many people say to me, they're like, oh, you know, you should… Cause I also, I mean, I'm wearing denim. So it's just to me, this is a color because I love wearing black. You know, people be like, you know, you're a love coach. You should wear red. You should wear pink. You should wear color. And I'm like, I don't want to. Paula Edgar: So Branding Room Only is the name of the podcast. And it is a play on the term standing room only, because I'm clever. Francesca Hogi: Yes, you are. Paula Edgar: What is that unique aspect about you that would have a room with only standing room left in the room to experience about you? What's your magic? Francesca Hogi: The feedback that I get from people is that I help them to think of things in ways that they didn't think of them before. And even if it's something that's very obvious, when I point it out, once I point it out, they're like, oh, how did I not notice that before? Paula Edgar: It was just, it was right there in front of you. Francesca Hogi: I just, I've had… I've had clients who they like, they'll do like one session with me and they'll be like, I've been talking about this to my therapist for 10 years. And why now I have a breakthrough. Like what just happened? I'm like, I mean, this is what I do. So I think, yeah, people come to me for that real like perspective shifting and like, you think there's nothing more to do. You think you've thought of it all and you haven't. Paula Edgar: So tell the people how they can learn more about you. Do you work with both men and women? Where should they go to find out your, your deets, et cetera? Tell me. Francesca Hogi: Yes, so I'm easy to find. I'm at Dear Franny on all the places. I have a podcast called Dear Franny, which I'm not currently recording any new episodes, but I've got lots of past episodes that people can check out. I do work with men and women. To be clear, I don't match make anymore, because people need to learn how to be their own matchmakers, because learning how to be your own matchmaker also, it also teaches you how to be a good partner and how to choose the right partner and all of those good things. So I am a coach and I love, I actually love working. I work mostly with women, but I also love working with men, because they tend to just do whatever you tell them. No pushback. It's great. Paula Edgar: Well, y'all, if you need a dating coach, or if you have a friend who does and you know, you do have a friend who does, tell them to reach out to Franny. Franny, it's wonderful having you in the podcast. Everybody see you next time. And always stand by your brand. Bye. That's it for this episode. I appreciate you hanging out with me on Branding Room Only. Now, please do me a quick favor. Head over to RateThisPodcast.com/branding, so more people can join this conversation and make sure to stop by PaulaEdgar.com/events to see what's next, whether I'm live, online or in person. I'd love to see you there. See you next time in the Branding Room. And until then, stand tall, shine bright and always stand by your brand.