Live with Deborah Enix-Ross: Leadership Lessons on Branding, Resiliency, and Authenticity

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Description

In this first ever live episode of Branding Room Only, Paula Edgar sits down with Deborah Enix-Ross—international law leader, past president of the American Bar Association, and proud Harlem native—for a powerful conversation on what it means to build a brand with purpose, lead with integrity, and honor the communities that shaped you.

Recorded in front of a full room of rising legal leaders at the Metropolitan Black Bar Association’s Leadership Academy, this episode brings Deborah’s story to life. From her early days growing up across from Yankee Stadium to leading one of the most influential legal organizations in the world.

Through humor, honesty, and a few unforgettable mic-drop moments, Deborah shares what it means to show up, at work, in leadership, and in life, with clarity, authenticity, and courage.

Chapters

4:44 – Deborah’s personal branding definition, three key attributes, favorite quotes from her mother, and her hype song
10:36 – How Deborah’s upbringing shaped her identity and professional path
19:40 – Her career evolution from journalism dreams to international law
28:39 – The advice she wishes she had early in her career
35:28 – Deborah’s leadership style and how she balances empathy with decisiveness
42:12 – The moment she confronted a boss about inequity, and what happened next
50:30 – A leadership curriculum for Black lawyers and navigating difficult professional moments
59:43 – How she got involved with the ABA, and why she stayed
1:05:07 – Civics, civility, and collaboration: Deborah’s priorities as ABA president
1:12:48 – Balancing visibility, leadership, and her marriage
1:18:28 – Her personal interests, non-negotiable values, and the magic of “standing room only”

Connect With Deborah Enix-Ross

Deborah Enix-Ross is the Senior Advisor, Global Engagement for the International Dispute Resolution Group and a member of the ESG group for Debevoise & Plimpton, a global law firm. She was named on the 2024 inaugural Forbes List of America’s Top Lawyers and the 2022 Forbes 50 Over 50: Impact list. She is recognized for being “a change maker who uses her empathy, insight and savvy to make the world a better, more equitable place.”

Prior to joining Debevoise she served as a Senior Legal Officer and Head of the External Relations and Information Section of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) Arbitration and Mediation Center in Geneva, Switzerland. Before joining WIPO, she was the Director of International Litigation for the Dispute Analysis and Corporate Recovery Services Group (DA&CR) of Price Waterhouse, and, before that, served, for seven years, as the American representative to the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC) International Court of Arbitration, which is based in Paris.

The U.S. Departments of Commerce and State appointed her as one of the original eight U.S. members of the trilateral NAFTA Advisory Committee on Private Commercial Disputes. 

Deborah is a Past President of the American Bar Association (ABA), the world’s largest voluntary association of lawyer, judges and legal professionals.   She is a past Chair of the ABA House of Delegates, the ABA’s 600-member policy-making body, and a former Chair of the ABA Center for Human Rights and Chair of the Center’s Business and Human Rights Project. She is also a former Chair of the ABA Section of International Law, where she co-founded the Women’s Interest Network (WIN). During her tenure as Chair of the International Law Section, she led an International Legal Exchange (ILEX) delegation to Ghana (where she delivered an address commemorating the country’s 50th anniversary of independence), Liberia and Sierra Leone. 

Deborah Enix-Ross (Debevoise & Plimpton) | LinkedIn

Mentioned In Live with Deborah Enix-Ross: Leadership Lessons on Branding, Resiliency, and Authenticity

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Transcript

Paula Edgar: Welcome to The Branding Room Only Podcast where we share career stories, strategies, and lessons learned on how industry leaders and influencers have built their personal brands. Now, let's get started with the show. Hi everyone, it's Paula Edgar, and welcome back to Branding Room Only. Today's episode is extra special because it's the first time I recorded the podcast live in front of an audience. The conversation took place at the Metropolitan Black Bar Association's Leadership Academy in front of an incredible room full of future leaders and changemakers. I had the absolute honor of sitting down with the phenomenal Deborah Enix-Ross, a global leader, past president of the American Bar Association, and someone whose career and personal brand truly embody leadership, resilience, and authenticity. You'll hear a little more energy in the background because, well, we were live. I'm thrilled that you'll get to experience it with us. Let's jump into the conversation. Paula Edgar: All right, everyone. So this is very exciting to me because this is the first time I have ever done my podcast live. As Nicole mentioned—she threatened me last year—I mean, she said that we were going to do this. I love when intention comes to fruition. So let me tell you a little bit about my podcast. Then I'm going to introduce my guest, and we're going to jump into this conversation. Branding Room Only is my gift to the world so that we can understand that branding is important while I'm here, while I'm square, and when I'm not here, and they're there, this voice and these conversations will be absolutely still a part of the narrative. And I've had so much fun doing this, and I'm so excited to be doing it live, and most importantly doing it with the Metropolitan Black Bar Association, which is such an important part of my brand as a past president, and for this wonderful El Paso Hall Leadership Academy, which is a mix of the passions that I have in terms of leadership and branding and impact. So I want to thank both President Nicole Arrindell and President-Elect Justina Rivera for their partnership and their leadership as we get started. Branding Room Only. Branding Room Only is a podcast where I talk to leaders, lawyers, influencers, and anybody who I'm interested in—because it's my podcast—about branding and what it means and how they have built their own. And so I'm very excited today to introduce you to my guest, Deborah Enix-Ross. Let me tell you about Deborah. Deborah Enix-Ross is a senior advisor, global engagement, for the International Dispute Resolution Group and a member of the ESG Group for Debevoise & Plimpton, a global law firm. She was named on the 2024 inaugural Forbes list of America's Top Lawyers, and the 2022 Forbes Over 50 Impact List. Deborah is also a past president of the American Bar Association (ABA), the world's largest voluntary association of lawyers, judges, and legal professionals. She is recognized for being a changemaker who uses her empathy, insight, and savvy to make the world a better and more equitable place. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you, Deborah. So, I always start my podcast with this: What is personal branding to you? How would you define it? Deborah Enix-Ross: Well, first I want to say thank you for asking me to be a part of this very special podcast. I don't really do podcasts, so I was like, "What does mean? Are you shooting me from the head up? I would have worn nicer shoes." I guess that's part of branding. So going back to your question. I think what it means for me is, what are you known for? What do people think of when they speak about you? And you can certainly want to establish your brand, but there's what you think you are saying and what you think about yourself, and then there's what people really think about you. So that's, to me, where branding meets who you are. Paula Edgar: I love that, because I always often say that even if you don't think you have a brand, even if you haven't managed your brand, you absolutely have one. So it makes sense to own the narrative and to decide what you at least are saying about yourself. Which leads me to my next question. How would you describe yourself in three words or short phrases? Deborah Enix-Ross: Direct. Personable. Savvy. Paula Edgar: Direct, personable, and savvy. I love that. Deborah Enix-Ross: DPS. Instead of a GPS, I'm a DPS. Paula Edgar: Ooh. Cool, okay. Look what we're doing here. That works for me. All right, let's do that. So let me ask you this. Do you have a favorite motto or a quote? Deborah Enix-Ross: I do. Well, I have two. Both come from my mother, but let me just give you a little background. My mother was one of ten kids. She was born in South Carolina and, like a lot of women—or people—in her generation, she moved from the South to the North looking for a better life. She did not have a lot of formal education, but she was as smart a person as I know, and a woman filled with integrity. She was very religious but still liked her Saturday night party, so that kind of thing, if you know what I'm saying. So the two sayings that I remember growing up are, "Say what you mean, and mean what you say." That has really guided my life. But the one that I dislike the most—but still, it resonates for me—is, "It's not your first disappointment, and it won't be your last." For me, what that meant was there are going to be bumps in the road, and you need to understand that that's going to happen. And then, what are you going to do about it? Paula Edgar: I love that you gave two, first of all. I also love finding some similarities and commonalities at the beginning of the conversation. Many of you who have listened to the podcast or know me, know that I often talk about my mother as well. She had two things that she would say to me as well. One—at this point, y’all should be able to chant this on your own—but, "You can be the wind or you can be the leaf." That’s talking about—and I think of that as like my branding credo—"You can decide what your brand is going to be," right? Being strategic about it. Or you can just let the world happen and who knows what's going to happen? So that was the first one that has been a real guidance in my life. The second one is similar to your mother’s. This one was, "Buck up, buttercup." Deborah Enix-Ross: Yeah. Paula Edgar: So it’s like, bad things are going to happen. Get over it and keep on going. So speaking to the past and about resilience and navigating, you really have to just continue pushing on. We know this well at a time such as this, which we're going to get into. Next question. Do you have a hype song? And this is either the song that you are going to play when they're getting full Deborah Enix-Ross coming in and going to give all of that, or you're having a bad day and you need to get back onto a good day. It could be the same song or it can be two different ones. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yeah, I like Empire State of Mind, Alicia Keys, because I’m a New York City girl. Paula Edgar: Come on, New York, yes. Deborah Enix-Ross: Like, born and raised from a young girl. But just the chorus part. That part. That’s the part I like right there. A funny story, I mean, I’ve been very privileged to have traveled in a lot of places around the world. I remember being in Johannesburg. You could just hear Jay-Z, “Yeah, yeah, yeah.” I was like, "They’re playing my song." It’s like, get to the chorus. So that’s my song. Paula Edgar: I love it. As a fellow New Yorker, I love it even more. And now I’m like, “I don’t even know what the other lyrics are.” Deborah Enix-Ross: Exactly. Paula Edgar: So to that end, that works. Deborah Enix-Ross: Now wait, I will say this, that’s a recent one. Because if you’d asked me this in my college/law school days, it would have been Native New Yorker. So now those that are younger than like 40— Paula Edgar: I got your 40 days. I’m a Native New Yorker. Google it. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yeah, that was a good song. It’s a very good song. Paula Edgar: Okay, so we've already started talking a little bit about where you're from and a little bit about your mom, but tell me specifically, where did you grow up and how do you think that shaped you both personally and professionally? Deborah Enix-Ross: So I literally grew up about 100 blocks north of where we are right now in Harlem. I was born in Harlem Hospital. You can't get more Harlem than me. I was born in Harlem Hospital. I went to New York City public schools. Paula Edgar: Shout out. Deborah Enix-Ross: Shout out. So I grew up really on the Manhattan side across from Yankee Stadium, in an apartment complex called Esplanade Gardens, if you know, you know. But even though I grew up across, like literally, Yankee Stadium I could see from my bedroom window, which is good and bad because I could see the time in the old Yankee Stadium. They had the time on the outside so I knew every day when I was running late from school. But even though I grew up that close to Yankee Stadium, I am a die-hard Mets fan. Paula Edgar: What can I tell you? Deborah Enix-Ross: You know why? Because I always root for the underdog. There you go. Paula Edgar: So, I myself have a similar Yankees and Mets story. I think from the time I was born, I knew that I was supposed to be a Yankee fan because that's what my parents told me, specifically my father. However, I'm in a mixed marriage. My husband is a Mets fan. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yeah. Paula Edgar: And, and so. Deborah Enix-Ross: Well, I’m in an even more mixed marriage because my husband is from Detroit. Paula Edgar: Okay. Deborah Enix-Ross: He has lived in New York. We met when I was a legal services lawyer and he was a paralegal. Paula Edgar: Okay, okay. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yeah, an office romance. Paula Edgar: Oh, okay. Deborah Enix-Ross: He roots for every Detroit team there is. He will never root for any other, like if it's got Detroit, he roots for it. One year for his birthday, I bought him that shirt, “Detroit versus Everybody.” He loves it. That's a real mixed marriage. Paula Edgar: Facts, you've proven this to me. I'm good with this. Let's talk outside of baseball and outside of boroughs, although I can never do anything, speaking of my brand. We do know that I represent Brooklyn at all times. Deborah Enix-Ross: Brooklyn in the house. Paula Edgar: This is an FYI. We had this conversation earlier. Shout out to my people in the back. So we've talked a little bit about the baseline. You talked about where you grew up. But tell me a little bit more about being a Harlem girl, understanding that you could see Yankee Stadium, being a New Yorker. How do you think that that has shaped you and maybe your brand? What about the New Yorkness is a part of the Deborah Enix-Ross story? Deborah Enix-Ross: So the other part of it is that I went to church, which is very foundational for me. I was at Salem United Methodist Church in Harlem. So between growing up in the city and going to that church, I realized later in life how much that shaped me. Even when I went off to college and to law school, I went to University of Miami. I'm a double Cane. But I’m really a New Yorker, and I didn't think of myself as such a native New Yorker until you're outside of that environment. What you know about New Yorkers is we are, I think, empathetic with just a little bit of cynicism mixed in there. Just enough so that the way that it shows up in my life is that I will certainly give people the benefit of the doubt once. Right? Because I think that's a New York thing. In New York, they're like, “Well, let me just...” and then if you suss something out and your antenna goes up, “This is not correct,” you then are not afraid to say that. I think that that has really helped me as I went through going to college for—I'm first generation everything. First generation to graduate from high school in my family, from college, certainly law school. At each step of the way, if you're not sure of who you are, you can be pulled in different directions. So I think that's the New Yorker in me. Because New Yorkers have nothing if not overconfident. I mean, we are for good reason. People will say, "Oh, you New Yorkers think you're this," and, "I can't stand New York. It's so big." And so we're like, "Yeah, it is." It's not for everyone. I think that was the attitude that has helped me to realize there's an inner strength that was born in the South for my family. And even the strength that they had to move from a place that they were known to an unknown in New York, I think that also is a part of my story. Paula Edgar: Okay, well before we move on to talking about your career, tell me a little bit more about that. Where in the South did your family come from? And then I definitely need to know—I forgot to ask you this—where do you fall in the ten? Deborah Enix-Ross: My mom is from Bishopville, South Carolina and so when people go, “Huh?” I say, “First, start with Columbia because that's kind of a big city.” Then people usually know Darlington because there's a racetrack, and then there's Bishopville. So it's right next to it. When I say one of 10, I'm not one of 10. My mom was one of 10. It's just my sister and I. But my mother was one of 10. She was the second oldest and the first to leave South Carolina and then bring all of the other sisters and brothers up to New York. I didn't really understand that journey until I read the book The Warmth of Other Suns, which I highly recommend everyone. I see a lot of people read it. It is just a phenomenal book. My only regret is that I read it after my mom had passed. So I couldn't go back and ask her some of those questions. But I had my aunts and uncles that were still alive at the time. Just the courage that it took for them—and my mom, as I said, didn't have a high school education—to move from the South, where she knew there was just literally no opportunity, and come up to New York and get established here. She really just almost beat into my sister and I, “You have got to go to college.” I thought everybody went to college automatically. I thought like you go to junior high school, then you graduate and go to high school, and then you graduate from high school and go to college. It wasn't literally until I was in my senior year, almost graduating, that I realized, oh, some of y’all are not going to college? Because it was just such a part of the narrative. She really believed so strongly, as did my father, in education. He had a sixth-grade education. Paula Edgar: Wow. Deborah Enix-Ross: So they really were just incredibly attuned to what opportunities exist when you have an education. Paula Edgar: Just to be fair and have equity, where was your father's family from? Deborah Enix-Ross: He was from Indiana. They had started in Tennessee and moved to Indianapolis. So he was kind of a Midwest Dapper Dan kind of a guy. You know, he grew up in Indianapolis, which he used to call Naptown. Like that was like a hipster kind of thing, you know. But he was a cook and was in the Navy. So my love of traveling and meeting different people, all of that came from my father. Paula Edgar: Wow. Well, I'm glad we got that additional context because I think it's important to understand the path that you have been on and also just how important your achievements are given where your family has come from. So let's talk about your career path. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yes. Paula Edgar: Let's all sit back, relax, and hear about the career trajectory of Deborah Enix-Ross. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yes. So if you had said to me, well, when I went to law school, it was because originally I was a journalism major. And I thought I was going to be Oprah Winfrey before Oprah. Like, she didn’t exist. So I was a broadcast journalism major. I had an internship at a local television station in my senior year. I thought, “This is it, I’m on my way.” But I noticed that the reporters, the female reporters, who got the best assignments didn’t look like me and were a little friendly with the station manager. And I said, “You know what? That’s not me. I need something where I can be more independent.” So I thought, “Aha. I will go to law school and become a First Amendment lawyer,” therefore combining that love of journalism and law. And I thought, “Rightly so, that if I'm a lawyer and no one wants to hire me, I can put out my own shingle and be my own boss.” So that was the idea. I went to law school and, as you do in your first year, I took constitutional law and hated it. And I think, you know, there's my first serendipity. Because I think if I had been more mature, the reason I did not like constitutional law was when we studied the abolition of slavery, I was really upset that the argument to abolish slavery was an interstate commerce clause argument, and not that it was morally wrong. So if I had been more mature, I think I would have said, “How clever were those lawyers that they were able to see a different path forward.” In hindsight, now, I’ve reflected on that. That has actually been helpful to me in my career as I started thinking about how to use the law. But I wasn’t that clever at 21. I went to law school at 21. So I thought, “Pivot, no constitutional law for me. What else do I like to do?” Well, I love travel. I love language and people. I had been a French minor. So I thought, “I’ll become an international lawyer.” No clue. No clue what that meant. I mean, the only thing international was like my neighborhood. You know, like the bodega. I knew a little Spanish. I knew some Haitians. I was like, “Okay, international.” But it’s like, because I had not traveled, at that point, I’d been maybe to Canada on a bus trip for church, as you do. Anyway, so I decide that’s the area I want to focus in. I came back, I studied for the New York Bar. First thing they told me is, "You'll never pass the New York Bar. You didn't go to law school in New York. You went to that funny University of Miami, Florida place. What is that?" And I thought, “Yeah, okay. Right, I'm going to pass this bar.” I did, the first time around. Then I tried to get a job. I couldn't get a job in big law, which is interesting because obviously now I'm in a big law firm. So one summer I worked in legal services, and I ended up getting a job in legal services, which I loved for a number of years. That's really where I honed my skills in litigation, people skills, because you've got a range of clients and you have to deal with judges. And a lot of times, we were up against big law firms, and they would look down on you as a legal services lawyer, and you'd say, "That's okay. I'm going to use that. You are underestimating me. It's not the first time that's happened in my life, so I will use that." Anyway, I went from legal services, and I was on an arbitration and mediation team, and then went to a different organization and ultimately to the International Chamber of Commerce ICC Court of Arbitration. That was my first big break in international law. So I talk to students a lot and I tell them it took me seven years to get my first job in international law. A lot of people are like, "Oh my God, how could you do it?" And I said, "Well, the way I thought of it is, I'm going to have a long career. So seven years is not a long time when you're going to practice for 40 years." It felt long. I'm not going to say that in those seven years, it didn't sometimes feel like, "When am I going to get my break?" But I just felt like, I know I'm smart. I know what I'm capable of. I will just keep at it. So that's the shortened version. Then I ended up living in Geneva for five years and working for the World Intellectual Property Organization Arbitration Center and then coming to Debevoise & Plimpton in our international dispute resolution group more than 20 years ago. Paula Edgar: Wow. I love so many things about what you just said. The one that you pulled out yourself was the set of goals, you said, "I wanted to do this," the vision. The fact that it wasn't just the next day you were like, “Now I'm here.” So often when people set goals—and you all know I'm passionate about goal setting—I love intention and goal setting and I love the thinking about, like my mom said, being the wind. However, sometimes you've got to be a little leafy before you get to the wind. You have to understand that every step forward toward that, even if they're tiny, is impactful. So I love that you shared that, and that there were some brave points in there. Because while you're just like, "Oh, and then I was in Geneva," I'm like, I'm scared hearing that, it wasn’t me. Because doing things that are unfamiliar, doing things that are outside of what people normally do, that’s a skill set. And I would say that probably is where that New Yorker, and also the drive and the vision that your parents also had, to say, "We're going to do what needs to be done to get where I want to get to," is in that story you just told us. Deborah Enix-Ross: Absolutely. I am a product of so many people pouring into me, whether it’s my church, shout-out to Salem United Methodist Church on 129th Street, as we used to say, in the heart of Harlem, because those little old church ladies would put the five dollars, which was a lot, in my hand when I would come home from college, and they’d say, "How are you doing? How’s your grades?" And then when I said I wanted to go to law school, they upped it to $10, which is a little expensive. Paula Edgar: So you get my lunch. Deborah Enix-Ross: It’s a little expensive. But then they said, "Come back and don’t forget us." So I tried to do that, to remember that. I knew that I was carrying them with me. That there were maybe opportunities that they had been denied, that my own parents had been denied, and so much of that was being placed on me, but in a good way. So I really carried that with me everywhere I went. Paula Edgar: I love that honoring of your roots, and I think that is an important piece of thinking about your foundations as you go forward. Because similarly, my parents, every February, I had to watch Roots, literally. Roots, Shaka Zulu, and Eyes on the Prize. Deborah Enix-Ross: Dang, you got it. You had the radical power. Paula Edgar: It was like, "Power to the people." Please remember that when you said it's bad because you have to clean your room, it is not. That was bad. But it's always a reminder of from whence we have come. What is one piece of advice you wish you had when you started your career? Deborah Enix-Ross: I remember people talking about law as a profession. It’s a profession. I didn’t have professionals in my family, so I was like, “What does that mean?” Learning what that means to be a professional. Because law school teaches you the law, but it didn’t, at least then, teach me what it means to be a professional, whether it’s how you dress, how you approach a task, how you react to people in the workplace, and how they react to you, how you dress. I came up in the time when the book was called Dress for Success. It literally said that women should wear dark suits with this kind of bow tie look, like a big bow, instead of a tie. That your hair should be of a certain length. Of course, that couldn’t be braided. It was not written for me. Paula Edgar: We would have failed that. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yeah, it was not written for me. But just kind of those things, I just didn't know. I had to figure it out myself. That was a learning curve. It really was. When I look back at it now, what was good for me is that I had a number of friends in different professions, and we were all going through it at the same time. So we could just sort of figure it out together. And then I remember the day that I decided, I went for the dream. My dream, what I thought then was my dream job, was the one that allowed me to be the U.S. representative for the ICC Court of Arbitration. I went on the interview, and I had my hair braided. Now, this was like in 1988, 1990. I had this really terrific interview, and I remember saying, now at the end, "My hair is braided. Is this a problem?" Paula Edgar: You said that? Deborah Enix-Ross: Oh yeah, because I wanted the job. Paula Edgar: That's that D in Direct that you're talking about. Deborah Enix-Ross: Right? I wanted the job, and I thought I had done well in the interview, but I didn't want to lose the job because, now again, this was in the 80s where having your hair braided by some folks seemed like it was a radical statement. For me, it was a statement of convenience, even more than style, it was like, I don't have to perm and whatnot. So I remember at the end of the interview, they were like, "Do you have any questions?" And my question wasn't about salary—because, you know, the truth is, I would have taken anything they offered me—but they didn’t know that. I mean, I was just so excited. But I did ask, "Is my hairstyle going to be a problem? Because if it is, I want you to know I can change it if it's going to be a problem." Now, in my mind, what I was thinking is, "I'll change it till I get the job." And like, "I'll give it three months when you get past that probationary period, then I’m going to come rocking my braid back there." But I didn’t say all of that. I just asked. I was direct. I was like, "Is this a problem?" And I'll never forget the woman who ended up hiring me. She was like, "Oh no, I thought that looked nice." And I was like, “Good, we’re all good here.” I ended up getting the job, and it was as transformative as I thought it would be. Because it was my first entrée into international law and the practice. It was, at the time, what I thought was my dream job. "I have died and gone to heaven" job, my "I will stay here forever" job. I just didn’t want to lose that opportunity because of a hairstyle. I thought that was all over, and then years later, a few years ago, I was part of a conversation about hair, about how you wear your hair, and I thought, "Aren’t we past all of that?" But I guess not. Paula Edgar: So much to pull from that one. There's the branding and thinking about professionalism and how you show up, what you're supposed to do, understanding, that's one of the reasons why I started this podcast. Because I understood that there was a lot of information that I had had because of my mother. Again, I believe that there's something about the experience of having strong parents who are like, "Don't embarrass me when you walk outside." That was my first branding_lesson. Also, don't be ashy when you go outside. Also, make sure you look right. Those are all core pieces. Deborah Enix-Ross: Did you not get the "and fix your face?" Paula Edgar: Pause on that one. My mother used to say, "You've got a Black girl face. I know exactly what you're thinking." I'm like, "What other face would I have? I'm a Black girl." But what I really loved about what you just said—it’s a lesson I want to call out for all of you—which is authenticity. Oftentimes when I speak to not just junior folks but folks generally, they’re like, "Paula, I want to be someplace and work someplace where I can be authentic." And I’m like, "I want that for you too." But authenticity is not an on-and-off switch. It’s not "I’m authentic now, I’m not authentic now." It is a scale. So what you’re saying about when you get into a place and you're like, "Let me do this low bun until after the probation period," what that is saying is, "When I get comfortable, when they’re comfortable, when we have an understanding and they’ve seen my value, then I can start to show a little bit more on that scale." So the perception of authenticity is not just "I’m going to keep it real, I’m going to show power." It is understanding context and understanding your goal and vision. And then doing what you need to do once you have established what your brand is in that space—and continuing to show that—then they will be more open to it, and you will be more free to do so. That’s where authenticity comes in. So I really love that you gave that as a story for me to piggyback on. You know, I don’t want to say piggyback, but I like to piggyback on that one. All right, so we're here talking about leadership at the Metropolitan Black Bar Association Leadership Academy in New York. No, I was kidding. Oh, so let’s talk a little bit about leadership. How would you describe your brand as a leader? Deborah Enix-Ross: How I would describe it, and then there’s what I hope people would describe. I hope they’re the same. I would say that I am direct, that I am inclusive, up to a point. I’m happy to describe that, and that I’m empathetic, up to a point. When I say "up to a point," it's because, so the directness, I think for me, is something that I have to monitor. Because sometimes you know where you want to go, but you have to bring people along, right? And if you're letting people go around and around and then you go, "Okay, that's enough," that will come across better if you have allowed some discussion. Now as a leader, I tend to know where I want to go and where I want to end up. I hope you do. I may not have the exact answer about how to get there because I want to be flexible. So if I say I want to go, it’s like directions. If we want to go to 125th, and you say, "Let's go uptown to Harlem," there’s like five different ways you could go. But the goal is still the same: we’re going uptown to Harlem. So for me, leadership is allowing just enough discussion and then knowing when to cut it off. As they taught me in the ABA, one staffer used to say, "Pageant mom, smile." Because it's in my face. I'm sure you have heard this expression—if you’re parents or somebody told you—"Fix your face." Paula Edgar: Yeah, "Fix your face." Deborah Enix-Ross: I’m in the "Fix Your Face Club," because it really does show in my face. So I've worked at—I’m direct—but I've worked at it to try and be inclusive. And as I said, it's up to a point. Because there are some people that will get to your last nerve, and then they'll tap dance all over it. And you—if you're a leader—you cannot allow that. And it can be painful, but that's why you're the leader. Paula Edgar: So I didn’t know this was going to turn into a therapy session. But that rings a bell. For those of you who were around when I was the MBBA president, it should ring a big bell for you. Because I would say that it's something I had to learn. Where I’m like, I’m a Brooklyn girl, I also believe in being direct, and I’m also very vision-focused. And it’s like, "This is what we’re going to do." That doesn’t work all the time. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yes. Paula Edgar: People need to be heard. But again, also, the patience piece of understanding where folks have to come along on their own is the hardest piece, I think, for me as a leader. Where I'm like, "Okay, well I told you already," and "I have already done this," and "XYZ." But a part of it is allowing them to have their own leadership journey at the same time. Deborah Enix-Ross: Absolutely. I think being a leader is a combination of inspiring people and then giving them the tools that they need. If you set out the vision, "This is where I'd like us to go," I might have had one view of how to get there, but someone else might have a different view or a better view. I'm all for that, as long as we are reaching toward a common goal. But as a leader, you have to lead. Sometimes that can be lonely. But if you're trying to be popular, I mean, I like to be liked, but you know, I got at least two, three people that like me, so that’s okay. I need to get a job done. If I need to get the job done, I would love to get the job done and walk out of there with people, with relationships intact. That is ultimately the goal. But if the job has to be done, and I've been in situations where I've had to tell really good friends and leaders, "You need to sit down. This is not your time. This is not for you," it doesn't feel good, but that’s what leadership calls for. Paula Edgar: I've also had to be in some situations such as those, and I remember a former president at the Metropolitan Black Bar Association said to me, "If your goal is only to be liked, you will fail." Deborah Enix-Ross: Yes, absolutely. Now, I used to say in another organization—not in the bar association—I have no problem coming to your house, eating your food, drinking your wine—maybe your cocktails—and then telling you you’re wrong. I have no problem doing that, because they're not tied to one another. Wrong is wrong. Actually, if you're my friend and you put me in that position, that's worse to me. So I really have to stand up to you. So maybe that's just me, but I don't have a problem with that. That might be the New Yorker, it might be the Harlem girl, it might be—I don't know—my mother's from South Carolina. It could be any of those combinations but I don't think that because we are friends or colleagues that you get a pass when someone else doesn’t for the same behavior. Because that’s where you get dissension. Paula Edgar: Speaking of dissension—and maybe a little bit of pushback—I have found that sometimes communication from some folks goes better than communication from folks who are like us. Hearing "no," or "We're not going to do that," or anything else that’s contrary to what somebody else wants—hearing that from a Black woman leader can be a little more challenging for some to accept. Have you had any experiences like those? Deborah Enix-Ross: Yeah. I try to think of, I don't jump to, "Is this because I'm Black or because I'm a woman?" Although there are lots of times when I've had to say, "Now, is this because I'm Black or because I'm a woman?" And once I kind of unpack it, "Or is it just because they think I'm obnoxious or because they think I'm wrong?" I try to first think about what are the circumstances. But if I have been put in a position—whether it's an elected position, appointed position—I'm in that position because, first and foremost, I earned it. If I've earned it, then I need to own it and act accordingly. Now, I have learned to moderate my tone sometimes, my face sometimes, but I also have learned when it's time to bring that back up, because it's a tool just like anything else. You know, I've been very fortunate in my career. I haven't had to do it very often but my husband used to say, "Oh, you got that face." And that means like, don't mess with me. I remember when I was living in Switzerland. I was working for the World Intellectual Property Organization, and the young lawyers, the female lawyers, came up to me. I was maybe ten years older than them, and they said, "We notice that in the office, the male lawyers are getting their own offices, and we're getting shared space." And just some inequities that they noticed. And they said, "Would you say something to our boss?" In the international context, everything is all about nationality. I think they thought, "Well, you're American and from New York, so you do it." I was older, so I understood it. My boss was Australian. And—I'm not going to stereotype—but my boss was Australian. He didn't necessarily like Americans. You know what? I never realized how American I am until I lived outside of the U.S. I always think of myself as a New Yorker. Not I just think I'm a New Yorker. If you really break it down, I'm like, "I'm a Harlem girl," that's what I think. But in that international context, you're American. So, I went to my boss and I said, "We've noticed that the women don't have the same parity in lots of things as the men," and he rolled his eyes and he was like, "Oh, you Americans, you're always this, that..." And then he really—I mean, he started... I don't know, he was just really disrespectful. And I told him off. I was professional, but I said, "Here's the litany, here are the things." And then I did something that I had never done, I cried. Yeah. I was mad at myself for crying. I was so angry. And I was like, "You da da da da da da da," and then a tear came. But my husband—I went home and told my husband—he said, "You cried?" I said, "Yeah." He's like, "Oh, he's in trouble." He said, "Your boss is in trouble." So the next day, he rang me up and asked me to come up to go over a file. And I said okay. And we went over the file, and then at the end, he was like, "Um, yeah, so I have this trip that I can't take..." And you know, when you're in the UN system, like a trip is like a reward. He's like, "It's to Australia, and I can't go." And I knew he really—because he's Australian—he really wanted this trip. So I realized this was his peace offering. I'm not an easy girl. So I said, "When is it?" You know, in my head I was like, "Yeah, right." But I was like, "You don't get off that easy." So I said, "Well, when is it?" "Oh, it's these days." I was like, "Oh, and what do they want me to speak about?" And he said, "Well..." I said, "Let me check with my family—my husband and son—and see if I can make arrangements." And he said, "Okay, thank you." But I knew, and he knew, we both knew that that was the peace offering. It was a peace offering not because I was competent—I should have been asked to go in the first place anyway—but because he understood that he had crossed the line. And I understood that, you know what? That was the first and only time I've ever cried at work. And it wasn't for me, it was for these women that were saying, "You're being unfair." And you know, I let loose. I really told him some things that he needed to hear. That was probably the worst of it. Paula Edgar: Number one, shout out to you getting to go to Australia. I remember—some of you may know that I practiced law for a very short time, less than one year, actual practicing. But the boss that I had at the place where I was practicing—feel free to go to my LinkedIn to see where it was—he would yell at a Black woman who was in the office next door to me. Pretty much like six o'clock every day, he would yell, she would cry. She would weep. I just remember the last day I decided I was going to quit, I could hear her weeping. You know the tears that is like a gut, I heard that. I thought to myself, "This cannot be what my ancestors wanted for me." I went to him and I was like, "Uh, yes, I have decided that I'm going to quit." And this is what this man said. He said, "Where are you going to go?" Clearly, you cannot see the covering of the Lord on me. But I said to him, "What are you—what?" Because I was shocked. Again, I've always had outside-of-New-York confidence. So I was like, "What do you mean? I'm going to figure out what I'm going to do next." He was like, "Good luck." Like, it was very much... So whenever I do something, when I have an achievement, I like to look at his LinkedIn so he can go back and look at my LinkedIn. I didn’t get to go to Australia, but he does get to see where I have been, a lot of places. Let me ask you this. So we’re at the Leadership Academy, and we thought this was something we wanted to do because leadership is so important. I think that the experience of lawyering is not just the law in the practice, it is the experience of how we connect with each other and make impact, etc. So if you were going to put together a curriculum for Black lawyers to lead, what would have to be in it? Deborah Enix-Ross: Besides all of the hard skills, I would say you’d have to have people talk about being your authentic self and the confidence that you have to have. Those would certainly be a part of it, but it would also describe what does that mean? What does that look like? And recognizing that being your authentic self can be on a continuum, and there’s nothing wrong with that. So, like I said, the first job—the first big break job—was the one for the ICC. And I took the bull by the horns and said, “Okay, are these braids going to be a problem?” Because I was ready to go sit in the corner and take them out right then. But it is recognizing that you have a goal, and you may need to moderate, not be inauthentic, but moderate to get to the achievement. So, when I was ABA president, one of the things that I said I wanted to do was go speak at the six—well, I didn’t realize there were six—HBCUs that have law schools. And I said, “That’s it. I’m making sure I go to speak to all of them.” And I remember very clearly, there was this small group of students, and this one young lady said, “Well, I’m not going to—” just like this—“Well, I’m not changing anything about myself to be anything. People say that I am abrasive.” Paula Edgar: Wait, everybody listening to the podcast right now, ones in the room, but you need to come onto the YouTube so you can see what she’s doing. Go ahead, all right. Deborah Enix-Ross: Meanwhile, all her classmates are sitting there rolling their eyes. And I said, “Well, do you think you’re abrasive?” And she said, “No, I don’t think I’m abrasive.” And I said, “Okay, let me give you some examples of things that have happened to me and how I handled them, and then let’s talk about how you would have handled them if you were in my shoes.” And one example I gave was—again, this dream job I’d waited seven years to get—my first job in international law. I was the U.S. Representative for the ICC Court of Arbitration. The ICC (International Chamber of Commerce) is based in Paris. So one of my jobs was to go to Paris. Like, “Hello, I can raise my hand for that.” But now, remember, this is—I feel like a dinosaur here—but this was before we had email. This was before we had fax machines. So when you set up an appointment, it was like literally, we had Telex. Look that up. It’s like a fancy Telegram. It was like a step above—anyway. My point is, in order to set up an appointment, you had to do it weeks in advance. So this was an appointment. I was meeting with American lawyers who were international arbitrators at this fancy club. I went there at the appointed hour, the appointed day, and said in my best French—remember, I said I was a French minor—“I’m here for the appointment with so-and-so.” And they said, “No.” And I was like, “No? Like, is this the right address?” “Yes.” This is all in French. “Is this the right address?” “Yes, this is the right address.” “Is Mr. So-and-so-so-and-so here?” “Yes.” “Okay, I have an appointment.” And they were like, “You can’t go in.” Paula Edgar: Huh? Deborah Enix-Ross: I had the same reaction. Then I was like, “Is this because I’m Black or because I’m a woman?” Now, this was in 1988. And I’m trying to—in my head, I’m like, “My French must be really bad,” as he’s saying, “No, you can’t come in.” Then a well-dressed—I’ll never forget this—white woman, who at the time looked to be like 55 or 60—she probably wasn’t, but I was like 25. But she was in a Chanel suit, and even I knew Chanel. And she came in, and they wouldn’t let her in. And I’ll never forget my reaction. I was like, “Phew. It’s not because I’m Black, it’s because I’m a woman.” It was a male club. The lawyers that I was meeting, they had never had women come. So they just didn’t realize that this club did not accept women. So now I’m trying to figure out what to do. I’ve said to this guy—and my French got really good when I’m angry—it was like, really, I was like head bobbing and everything French, you know, with a French accent. And I said, “I have to go up to this meeting. It’s a meeting and I have to do it.” And finally, he relented and said, “Okay, you can come around the back through the kitchen.” Told you my parents are from the South. And I had a moment there. And I said, “Do I do it or do I not?” And I decided—but this was my decision—I decided I would do it, because it took me seven years—all of the things that I just told you about, getting to that position. I went up and we came through the back like you’re facing me, I came through the back that way. So they all, the white me,n turned around and looked around because they had never really seen me either. "Hello," because the email didn’t exist, the web didn’t exist, as my mom used to say, "the interwebs didn’t exist." Right, so they didn’t have a picture of me, they just had the name Deborah Enix-Ross. Who knows what that looks like, right? And they all turned and said, "Why'd you come that way?" And I said, "Because this club doesn’t allow women to come up the front through the stairs." And they were mortified. Of course, good. I said, "Let’s continue." We had a great meeting, and in solidarity. I went up and we came through the back. So every... like you’re facing me, I came through the back that way. So they all—the white men turned around and looked around because they had never really seen me either. "Hello," because the email didn’t exist, the web didn’t enter, as my mom used to say, "the interwebs." Right, so they didn’t have a picture of me, like, they just had the name Deborah Enix-Ross. Who knows what that looks like, right? And they all turned and said, "Why'd you come that way?" And I said, "Because this club doesn’t allow women to come up the front through the stairs." And they were mortified. Paula Edgar: Of course. Deborah Enix-Ross: I said, "Let’s continue." We had a great meeting, and in solidarity—oh yeah, I could come—and we had our meeting, the lunch, the meeting, the wine. And then, in solidarity, they all got up and walked down the back steps with me. Paula Edgar: Wow. Deborah Enix-Ross: They said, "We will not come back to this place until this club allows women." So I told that story to this law student, the one that was like, "I don’t think of..." I said, "Now, you have to decide what you will do. There are going to be times when you’re a lawyer where you may take a personal affront at what a judge says or another lawyer says, but does that help your client?" That’s first and foremost. Paula Edgar: What is your ultimate goal? Deborah Enix-Ross: And for me, my ultimate goal was to make sure—it took me seven years, I’m married, child—I was not turning back. I will go through this door. There’s one time I’ll go to the back, and now change their minds. So I said, "You have to decide for yourself. What is that line that you will not cross?" And for you, it might be you not liking course in any lines—the lines are so tightly drawn that you may have problems getting employment. But we all have, at least in our minds, how far we will go. That’s a great leadership lesson. Paula Edgar: I love the experiential part that you gave, because when I was thinking about how I would answer that question, I thought to myself, I would give scenarios, because until you are in a leadership role, you don’t know what you’re going to experience by having that responsibility and the vision and the goals to do what you need to do. So you brought up an association some of you might have heard of, the American Bar Association, in which you were the president. What initially drew you to bar association leadership, and when did you know that you were going to be the ABA president? Deborah Enix-Ross: Two good questions. I think initially what drew me was literally when I was in law school and you took the prep courses. They like literally said, "Here’s the prep course, and here’s your ABA membership." It was kind of married together, and I was like, "Oh, I’ll be... and if you were an ABA member, somehow you got a discount for the prep course." So that was the beginning. Then I knew once I went through law school I wanted to practice international law, and I thought the ABA is probably the best place to be around international law practitioners, the best in the world. So I’m going to go and join the ABA. So I remember getting graduation money, and that was one of my gifts was to go to my first ABA meeting in San Francisco in 1982. Yes, and I know I didn’t know anyone. I had never even been to California. I got on the plane and went, and one day I’ll tell you the story about what happened well I went to the airport for some reason. I can’t remember all the details. The flight that I was going to take, I either... maybe it was those days you could buy the standby ticket, and I didn’t make it. So I had to come back anyway. A guy who was a client of a firm that I used to work for who may or may not have been a (audience laughing)... What happened? May or may not have been. I don’t know if the statute, I’m sure the statute of limitations has run out. Hashtag allegedly, hashtag allegedly. But he was, I was working for this... Anyway, we’ll talk about that all the time. Gotcha. But that was my first ABA meeting, and my feeling was, if I’m paying my ABA dues, I’m going to get the most value out of this, because I paid my ABA dues. That was a big chunk of money for me as a new lawyer. So that really was it. I went to the meeting, I went into the section of international law, I didn’t know anyone. I just worked the room. I just started meeting people. I wanted to meet anyone who was practicing international law, because I don’t know, maybe I thought it would rub off on me, they’d give me a job, whatever it might be. That was the beginning of my long association with the ABA. I went up and we came through the back. So every... like you’re facing me, I came through the back that way. So they all—the white men turned around and looked around because they had never really seen me either. "Hello," because the email didn’t exist, the web didn’t enter, as my mom used to say, "the interwebs." Right, so they didn’t have a picture of me, like, they just had the name Deborah Enix-Ross. Who knows what that looks like, right? And they all turned and said, "Why'd you come that way?" And I said, "Because this club doesn’t allow women to come up the front through the stairs." And they were mortified. Paula Edgar: Of course. Deborah Enix-Ross: I said, "Let’s continue." We had a great meeting, and in solidarity—oh yeah, I could come—and we had our meeting, the lunch, the meeting, the wine. And then, in solidarity, they all got up and walked down the back steps with me. Paula Edgar: Wow. Deborah Enix-Ross: They said, "We will not come back to this place until this club allows women." So I told that story to this law student, the one that was like, "I don’t think of..." I said, "Now, you have to decide what you will do. There are going to be times when you’re a lawyer where you may take a personal affront at what a judge says or another lawyer says, but does that help your client?" That’s first and foremost. Paula Edgar: What is your ultimate goal? Deborah Enix-Ross: And for me, my ultimate goal was to make sure—it took me seven years, I’m married, child—I was not turning back. I will go through this door. There’s one time I’ll go to the back, and now change their minds. So I said, "You have to decide for yourself. What is that line that you will not cross?" And for you, it might be you not liking course in any lines—the lines are so tightly drawn that you may have problems getting employment. But we all have, at least in our minds, how far we will go. That’s a great leadership lesson. Paula Edgar: I love the experiential part that you gave, because when I was thinking about how I would answer that question, I thought to myself, I would give scenarios, because until you are in a leadership role, you don’t know what you’re going to experience by having that responsibility and the vision and the goals to do what you need to do. So you brought up an association some of you might have heard of, the American Bar Association, in which you were the president. What initially drew you to bar association leadership, and when did you know that you were going to be the ABA president? Deborah Enix-Ross: Two good questions. I think initially what drew me was literally when I was in law school and you took the prep courses. They like literally said, "Here’s the prep course, and here’s your ABA membership." It was kind of married together, and I was like, "Oh, I’ll be... and if you were an ABA member, somehow you got a discount for the prep course." So that was the beginning. Then I knew once I went through law school I wanted to practice international law, and I thought the ABA is probably the best place to be around international law practitioners, the best in the world. So I’m going to go and join the ABA. So I remember getting graduation money, and that was one of my gifts was to go to my first ABA meeting in San Francisco in 1982. Yes, and I know I didn’t know anyone. I had never even been to California. I got on the plane and went, and one day I’ll tell you the story about what happened well I went to the airport for some reason. I can’t remember all the details. The flight that I was going to take, I either... maybe it was those days you could buy the standby ticket, and I didn’t make it. So I had to come back anyway. A guy who was a client of a firm that I used to work for who may or may not have been a (audience laughing)... What happened? May or may not have been. I don’t know if the statute, I’m sure the statute of limitations has run out. Hashtag allegedly, hashtag allegedly. But he was, I was working for this... Anyway, we’ll talk about that all the time. Gotcha. But that was my first ABA meeting, and my feeling was, if I’m paying my ABA dues, I’m going to get the most value out of this, because I paid my ABA dues. That was a big chunk of money for me as a new lawyer. So that really was it. I went to the meeting, I went into the section of international law, I didn’t know anyone. I just worked the room. I just started meeting people. I wanted to meet anyone who was practicing international law, because I don’t know, maybe I thought it would rub off on me, they’d give me a job, whatever it might be. That was the beginning of my long association with the ABA. Paula Edgar: Did they let you stay? Deborah Enix-Ross: Oh yeah, I could come, and we had our meeting, the lunch, the meeting, the wine. And then, in solidarity, they all got up and walked down the back steps with me. Paula Edgar: Wow. Deborah Enix-Ross: They said, "We will not hold this meeting until this club allows women." So I told that story to this law student, the one that was like, "I don’t think of..." I said, "Now, you have to decide what you will do. There are going to be times when you’re a lawyer where you may take a personal affront at what a judge says or another lawyer says, but does that help your client?" That’s first and foremost. What is your ultimate goal? And for me, my ultimate goal was to make sure—it took me seven years, I’m married, child—I was not turning back. I will go through this door. There’s one time I’ll go to the back, and now change their minds. So I said, "You have to decide for yourself. What is that line that you will not cross?" And for you, it might be you not crossing any lines, the lines are so tightly drawn that you may have problems getting employment. But we all have, at least in our minds, how far we will go. Paula Edgar: That’s a great leadership lesson. I love the experiential part that you gave, because when I was thinking about how I would answer that question, I thought to myself, I would give scenarios, because until you are in a leadership role, you don’t know what you’re going to experience by having that responsibility and the vision and the goals to do what you need to do. So you brought up an association some of you might have heard of, the American Bar Association, in which you were the president. What initially drew you to bar association leadership, and when did you know that you were going to be the ABA president? Deborah Enix-Ross: Two good questions. I think initially what drew me was literally when I was in law school, and you took the prep courses, they like literally said, "Here’s the prep course, and here’s your ABA membership." It was kind of married together, and I was like, "Oh, I’ll be..." and if you were an ABA member, somehow you got a discount for the prep course. So that was the beginning. Then I knew once I went through law school, I wanted to practice international law, and I thought the ABA is probably the best place to be around international law practitioners, the best in the world. So I’m going to go and join the ABA. So I remember getting graduation money, and that was one of my gifts was to go to my first ABA meeting in San Francisco in 1982. Yes, and I know I didn’t know anyone. I had never even been to California. I got on the plane and went, and one day I’ll tell you the story about what happened, well, I went to the airport for some reason, I can’t remember all the details, the flight that I was going to take, maybe it was those days you could buy the standby ticket, and I didn’t make it. So I had to come back anyway. A guy who was a client of a firm that I used to work for who may or may not have been a drug dealer. Paula Edgar: What happened? Deborah Enix-Ross: Who may or may not have been. I don’t know if the statute, I’m sure the statute of limitations has run out. Paula Edgar: Hashtag allegedly, hashtag allegedly. Deborah Enix-Ross: I was working for this... Anyway, we’ll talk about that [inaudible]. Paula Edgar: Gotcha. Deborah Enix-Ross: But that was my first ABA meeting, and my feeling was, if I’m paying my ABA dues, I’m going to get the most value out of this, because I paid my ABA dues. That was a big chunk of money for me as a new lawyer. So that really was it. I went to the meeting, I went into the section of international law, I didn’t know anyone. I just worked the room. I just started meeting people. I wanted to meet anyone who was practicing international law, because I don’t know, maybe I thought it would rub off on me, they’d give me a job, whatever it might be. That was the beginning of my long association with the ABA. Paula Edgar: So when did you know you wanted to be president of the ABA? Deborah Enix-Ross: Well, I started in the international law section. I chaired the international law section. I then eventually chaired the Center for Human Rights. You know, people would come up to me and say, "We can see you doing this." It's not that I didn't see it for myself, it's just that it wasn't as important to me. But I am a firm believer, and if I'm involved in an association, whatever it might be, whether it was Jack and Jill, or the Links, or wherever I am, I'm going to be served where I can. At a certain point, I chaired the House of Delegates, which was one of the best jobs in the ABA because it's about policy and then that's kind of a natural step to become ABA president. But I did think if I'm going to have the privilege of being president of the ABA, I want to try and I guess like most people would say, make it meaningful and make it impactful. That's why, eventually, I said, “Okay, I'll do this.” Paula Edgar: So a couple of things. My first ABA meeting was also in San Francisco. Our first meeting was Miami. So there were a lot of connections there. I love bar associations. I think that they are such a powerful way to not just build your skill set, but also to build your network and your friends. Some of my literally my best friends are people who I have met through the bar association. So what people think about it is just an association. It is a framework in which you can literally set up what you do, who you hang with, where you go, and you know there's just been so many powerful things I've done through all of the bar associations I've been involved in. So let's talk about this. Many people don't understand the magnitude of what it means to lead a body like the American Bar Association. What were some of the most impactful or maybe tough decisions you had to make when you were in that role? Deborah Enix-Ross: So impactful I hope was that I came in. So just to set the framework. I was president of the ABA from 2022 to 2023. So just at the kind of tail end of COVID and coming into 2023, but just before the elections. But as I was thinking about it because it's like a two-year run-up, so probably it was just before 2020, I was thinking about with this kind of a position, what would I like to focus on and I came across what we ended up calling the 3C: Civics, Civility, and Collaboration. The civics was because I just recognized that a lot of our fellow citizens don't understand how our government works. They have no idea. Now, I don't know, maybe they don't teach civics what we used to call social studies in schools anymore, but just the idea of the branches of government and what each branch of government is meant to do, how it relates, those kinds of things, civics education. And then civility, because we've gotten to a point where we don't know how to disagree in a productive way. Then collaboration, because to me, the rule of law is certainly the purview of lawyers, but it's not the exclusive purview of lawyers. So we need to collaborate across industries, across professions. It's going to take all of us as citizens. I almost had the fourth C, "citizens," but everybody said it's everything's in three. So I sort of wrap civics and citizens. Actually, when I would speak internationally instead of civics, I would say civilization or citizenship and then it translated very well. Those were the areas of focus. We were very successful in getting state and local bars to also embrace that. We had toolkits. What I envisioned was lawyers going out until the communities because lawyers are really leaders in our communities. I don’t know if you’ve had this experience but you could be sitting at your kid’s soccer or baseball game and people find out you’re a lawyer and then they want to ask you all kinds of questions. Paula Edgar: Especially now. Deborah Enix-Ross: Especially now. But we are natural leadrs. So just going out into our communities and helping peopl understand civics and civility was a privilege for me to be able to do. Paula Edgar: So you started mentioning some of the landscape when you became, you were leading up to the presidency and then you president, let’s talk about so in recent years, from pandemic to the present have tested leaders with politicization, social unrest, and DEI backlash. What advice do you have for current or future bar leaders given the state of the world? Deborah Enix-Ross: I would say first and foremost, we need bar leaders. If you look what the ABA has done and the ABA has come under siege and I just want to give a shout out to the current ABA president Bill Bay, now I jokingly say, “I’m glad I’m not president now. Timing is everything.” However, I do believe that comes the time comes the person to lead. But what has been very gratifying is when I ABA president, one of the things you had to think about is you cannot speak on every issue all the time because then it becomes like, “Charlie Brown…” Nobody’s listening to you. So I would say to people, you're going to want me to issue a statement or do something, and I'm going to tell you no. It's not because your statement or your issue isn't important, it's that I have to think about how to speak, and when to speak, and how often, so that it's effective. I can tell you other things that you can do to get your point across, but it doesn't have to be me. Having said that, the ABA has really stepped up and has come under a lot of fire. It has been targeted. There are stated goals to destroy the ABA. So I hope all of you—here's a little plug—are ABA members and that you encourage other people to join the ABA, because that's one statement that you can make just by joining and supporting the ABA. But then the other state and local bars that have rallied to understand that an attack on the ABA is an attack on the legal profession, we're seeing that. Then internationally, the number of bar associations from international across the world that have stepped up and issued statements, I'm now an officer in the International Bar Association, we just had our arbitration committee meeting in London, and I did the closing. At the closing, I read a statement from something called the CCBE, it's the Council of European Bars. Like if you think of Germany and France, etc., all these bars, Spain, coming together. They represent like a million lawyers in Europe, and they just issued a statement in support of the ABA. So I think it's really important that as a legal profession, we know we stand for the rule of law. And that the best way to do that is through our organized bar associations. There's never been a time that has been more important for bar leaderships at whatever level you are. And if no one has said it to you—because you probably won't hear it very often—thank you. Thank you for stepping up. Thank you for your service. Thank you for taking the slings and arrows that you're going to take in leadership, especially at this moment. But it's needed more than ever. Paula Edgar: Yeah, and just a sub-plug for those law students who are in the room or who are listening to this later on, ABA membership for law students. Come on through. It's free dot com, zero dot zero dot com. All right, so do so now, because the amount of people who become members also shows our backing of our profession as well. So thank you for that, Deborah. As we get into our closing, I want to get into some more personal and fun things. Deborah Enix-Ross: Okay, good. Paula Edgar: So, you mentioned your husband at the beginning of our conversation. How have you, as a leader, managed your personal relationships while building such a visible professional presence? And who do you lean on for support? Deborah Enix-Ross: So, I mentioned my husband's from Detroit. But we met in legal services. He was a paralegal. When he asked me to marry him, I said yes, but three conditions. Paula Edgar: There's a lot of threes. What are the conditions? Everybody, stop, write this down. Go ahead. Deborah Enix-Ross: I said, one: I will not live in Detroit. Not that I don't love Detroit, I love Detroit. And for those of you, if you've never been to Detroit or if you haven't been in a long time, you need to go back because it's fabulous. But I said, for the kind of law that I want to practice, I need to be in New York. So I know you're a Detroit guy, I know how much your family means to you, but can't do it. He said, “Okay.” I said, number two: at some point in my career, I want to live abroad. So in my mind, it was Paris, because I just love Paris. To me, Paris and New York are like sister cities, Parisians are just like New Yorkers. They've got attitude, the whole thing. So I was like, "It's Paris." And he said, "Oh, okay." And I said, the third is: no matter how broke we may be, we will never be so broke that I can't get my hair and nails done. Paula Edgar: I love it. I was going to say, there's people in the audience who I know that directly speaks to. Deborah Enix-Ross: So with those three conditions, you know, then let's do this. He has been supportive. We've been married 38 years. And I remember the day I came home and said, I was offered the opportunity to move to Switzerland, not Paris, but to Geneva, French-speaking, that's good enough. I said, "But I need you to help me think about how I turn down the offer now without closing the door forever." I'll never forget his reaction. He said, "Why would you say no?" And I said, "You never listen to me. I just told you the job would be in Geneva." And he said, "I know." "But you said when we got married, you wanted to live abroad. So why aren't you going to do it?" And I was like, "I knew I married him." Because it was a sacrifice for him. He had a job, a life here. And he was what they called in those days the "trailing spouse." They actually had a name for it, the trailing spouse. But it worked out well because he was on the radio. And if you were in Geneva at that time: World Radio Geneva, WRG, Rodney Ross. I was known in Geneva as Rodney Ross’s wife, which was great. But we always looked at it as we're in this together, and that was just very fortunate. Even now, as I was doing more in the ABA and ultimately becoming ABA president, he was extremely supportive. So much so that if he didn’t come to ABA meetings and people would say to me, "Where’s Rodney?" I’d be like, "I'm here." You know, "I'm here. Hello." So that’s been really important. Then just family and friends. Look, you can't do any of this, any of this work in bar associations, without the support, for me, of my firm. Debevoise is just an extraordinary firm. Public service and this kind of work is in our DNA. So I've been really privileged to be a part of Debevoise & Plimpton for more than 20 years. The firm has been incredibly supportive. Paula Edgar: I love that. For those of you who have never been to an ABA meeting or seen the House of Delegates, they did what I call a Vogue march. Like, whenever somebody who is elected is going to go up to the dais, you've got to do like a little one-two-three behind them. But I didn't understand how it was supposed to work. So the first time, I remember seeing your husband looking at you, lovingly even, right? They were applauding you because you had finished your term as president. We did a little rock and roll. Then I was standing there, I was like, “How are we supposed to do?” I didn’t realize we were supposed to go back. I just sat there. But anyway. But so I was in the front, and you can tell when somebody's loving you with their entire self. He was doing that. I just thought it was such a touching moment to see. So, shoutout to Rodney Ross. Deborah Enix-Ross: That's right. From Detroit. Paula Edgar: From Detroit. Okay, so as we close, I ask all of my guests on the podcast three of the same questions, and the first one is this. What do you do for fun? Deborah Enix-Ross: That I can say? Paula Edgar: Not the shimmy. Composure. Deborah Enix-Ross: So actually, I love my book club. I know you're going to tell us. I'm kind of into it. I love my book club because the first rule of book club is: come even if you haven't read the book. Paula Edgar: I need to be in that book club because everyone, I'm scared. Deborah Enix-Ross: We have read some books that, first of all, lots of books, that it forces me to read because you want to try and at least be in the conversation. And we have had some really interesting discussions, and it's just a fun time. And we host in someone’s house. We rotate. Whenever it’s my turn, my husband is like, “I can hear y’all from—are you really talking about the book?” I was like, “Mind your business. This is our book club.” So that is a lot of fun for me. And then I have this core group of friends. We call ourselves C2C (Coast to Coast) because three of us are from the East Coast and three from the West Coast. So that's my travel group. We have been to some phenomenal places. I travel for a living, but traveling with your girlfriends for pleasure is on another level. Especially two of them who are uber organizers. There is nothing better than, if you're a type A, to let a type A++ handle stuff. I'm like, “All I have to do is show up?” Paula Edgar: Absolutely. Deborah Enix-Ross: I can do that. We just have a great time. We've been to some wonderful places. It really feeds my soul. It's like a week of just girl time and laughing and fun and energy. And then you go back and you're ready to get back in the trenches. So those are my two. Paula Edgar: I love it. I love it. I love it. Shoutout to those friends. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yes. Paula Edgar: Because they are necessary people in our lives. Deborah Enix-Ross: Yes. Paula Edgar: So the next question is this: What is the aspect about your brand that you will never compromise on? Deborah Enix-Ross: So I tell people all the time, my strength is my weakness, which is I'm direct. And I won't compromise on that, but I will moderate that. I will still be, you know, people throw “authentic” around and that's important, but I don't know how to be any other way. I remember I said at the beginning, my mom: “Say what you mean and mean what you say.” So for some people that can come across as abrupt or rude, God forbid, I don't think I'm a rude person. I do try to moderate, but I won't stand down from telling you. If you ask me, I'm going to tell you what I think. And maybe sometimes if you don't ask me, I'm still going to tell you what I think. I'm going to try and do it in a way that has grace because I was raised in Salem United Methodist Church, and the Methodists do try to be a bit grace, giving people grace. But I won’t compromise on saying what I think needs to be said. Paula Edgar: Love that. Finally, Branding Room Only is a play on the term “standing room only,” because I am clever. So, that part. Deborah Enix-Ross: Own it. Paula Edgar: Okay, so my question is this: What is the special magic about Deborah Enix-Ross that would have a room filled with people with only standing room to experience about you? Deborah Enix-Ross: That was not a question on the list! Paula Edgar: It was on the list. I'm just saying it with passion. Deborah Enix-Ross: I'm looking at the list. I don't see that. Paula Edgar: It's the last question. Look. Deborah Enix-Ross: That’s not the last question. Paula Edgar: Okay, the one before that. Deborah Enix-Ross: Okay. So clearly, “authentic” would be, yeah. I mean, it's not that I like to think of myself, I am authentic. My dad used to say, “Deborah, you could get along with the devil himself, but not lose yourself.” I think what that means is I have an ability to connect with almost anyone. If I can't connect with you, there’s something wrong with you. That’s how I feel. Because I really can, I can connect with people, but not lose myself to that. I think that's a good way to be. I don't know how to be any other way. Paula Edgar: So thank you for that. As I was thinking about asking you this question, I thought to myself, “There aren't many people I ask the question that I have actually had the experience of seeing you in a room with standing room only.” So I will say this to you: I think that your magic, if I can take a host privilege, is your authenticity. But you also have this deep grace that is attractive. I think that is why people want to connect with you. There are a lot of leaders who are very much leading from afar. One of the things that I really appreciate about your leadership is that it is personal, but to a point, and that you can see this is going to be policy, but also you can see the fun part too. I think a good leader is going to be authentic and also vulnerable, and also garner that respect and that trust because of that connection, and you have it. And with that, I want to ask you all to thank my wonderful guest for today, Deborah Enix-Ross, for her wonderful authenticity and sharing everything that she did with us. This has been a wonderful, wonderful first time for Branding Room Only Live, and I appreciate that it was done with not just friends, but the family of the Metropolitan Black Bar Association. Thank you for joining me for this very first live episode of Branding Room Only. I'm so grateful to Deborah Enix-Ross for her candor, her storytelling, and her powerful lessons on branding, leadership, and legacy. Recording live with The Metropolitan Black Bar Association's Leadership Academy audience was an unforgettable experience, especially as a past leader and continued supporter of the organization. The energy in that room was palpable, and it made the conversation even richer. I hope that you felt that same energy wherever you're listening from. Until then, remember, your brand is being built whether you're in the room or not. So make sure it reflects who you truly are. See you soon in the Branding Room, and stand by your brand. Bye, everyone.