Use AI Like You Mean It: Personal Brand, AI Fluency, and Leading with Dignity with Gabrielle Kohlmeier
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Description
Knowing AI exists is one thing. Knowing how to use it in a way that sounds like you, supports how you lead, and strengthens your personal brand is something else entirely. That gap is where a lot of professionals are stuck.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier has spent years helping people move through that gap with more clarity and confidence. As a lawyer, tech leader, and transformation executive who led global legal AI adoption at one of the world’s largest telecommunications companies, she brings a practical, strategic, and dignity-centered perspective to the conversation. Her approach is rooted in grit, growth mindset, and a belief that change should be led with intention.
In this episode of Branding Room Only, Paula T. Edgar and Gabrielle Kohlmeier explore why AI fluency matters for personal branding, how to use AI as a thought partner without flattening your voice, and how the ABA Commission on Women in the Profession’s 21-Day Grit and Growth Mindset AI Challenge helps professionals build confidence, fluency, and momentum.
Chapters
1:23 – Gabrielle’s complicated relationship with personal branding
3:49 – Three short self-descriptive phrases for Gabrielle, two favorite quotes, and her eclectic mix of hype music
7:18 – How Gabrielle’s unique childhood turned into a powerful lens for reading the room, understanding multiple perspectives, and leading with humility and curiosity
9:34 – Gabrielle’s entry into law and discovery of growth mindset
12:18 – What grit and growth mindset mean and why Gabrielle is so passionate about these concepts
17:05 – How Gabrielle’s 21-Day Grit and Growth Mindset AI Challenge helps build your AI fluency and moves you from fear into informed experimentation
28:08 – How Gabrielle uses AI tools to process things out and why you might feel hesitant about adopting AI
34:24 – Why women and underrepresented professionals need to engage in AI for governance, branding, and positioning purposes
39:58 – Favorite AI tool, how Gabrielle uses it in her work and personal life, and why AI isn’t perfect
43:18 – One of Paula’s favorite use cases for AI and why it produces more valuable outputs
46:00 – How to start using AI in a way that enhances your voice rather than replaces it
49:24 – Why Gabrielle will never compromise on dignity in terms of her brand as technology advances
50:56 – How Gabrielle uses AI when traveling and exploring for fun
52:59 – The no-seats-left, standing-room-only experience Gabrielle brings to the room
Connect With Gabrielle Kohlmeier
Gabrielle Kohlmeier is a lawyer, tech leader, and transformation executive in a lifelong love affair with change. From complex litigation and government advocacy, counseling on antitrust and consumer protection, retail and security, policy and risk, to leading global legal AI adoption and bespoke tech teams in the world's largest telco, she helps organizations right-size risk and turn disruption into strategy.
Gabrielle is also an active member of the Women’s Bar Association of the District of Columbia and is admitted to the bars of D.C. and New York. She graduated summa cum laude and Order of the Coif from the George Washington University Law School, and simultaneously completed a graduate degree with concentrations in Technology and International Economics from George Washington University in 2008.
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Transcript
Paula Edgar: Welcome to Branding Room Only, the podcast where your personal brand gets a front-row seat. I'm Paula Edgar, and if you're here, it's because you know your brand isn't just about what you do. It's about how people experience you. In each episode, you'll hear stories, strategies, and lessons from leaders and influencers who built their brands and made their mark. And I'll share the tools you need to do the same. Let's go.
Hi, everybody. We're back in the Branding Room. It's Paula Edgar, your host, and I am very excited about today's conversation because I've been wanting to have it for a while. Let me tell you about my guest.
My guest today is Gabrielle Kohlmeier. She is a lawyer, tech leader, and transformation executive in a lifelong love affair with change. From complex litigation and government advocacy, counseling on antitrust and consumer protection, retail and security, policy and risk, to leading global legal AI adoption and bespoke tech teams in the world's largest telco, Gabrielle helps organizations right-size risk and turn disruption into strategy. Most important to her is to lead change with dignity. Most important to me is she's my friend.
Gabrielle, welcome to the Branding Room.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Thank you, Paula. I'm so excited to be here.
Paula Edgar: Awesome. All right, let's jump into it. So you know the podcast is on personal branding. So what does personal brand mean to you and how would you define it?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Oh, so I love that idea that personal brand is this feeling that you leave behind, channeling Maya Angelou, "How do you make people feel?" But I have to tell you, I have a complicated relationship with personal brand because of how I first encountered it when I was coming out of law school, as you know, into the law firm world.
It felt like they were telling us, "Put on this costume. Perform for this audience." It felt at the time like this very heavy armor that dampened my light rather than letting it shine. It also felt like it depended so much on what other people think and, "Do other people like you? And is your costume shiny enough for them?"
And I saw so often how fickle people were. They loved someone and then they hated them. Then they're like, "Oh, I always liked them." So it felt so stressful to think, "How do I create a personal brand that people will always like me?"
I think for me, growth mindset was this entryway out of that trap where it helped me shed that costume, refocus on my own light, thinking really about, "What do I genuinely care about? How can I use that to do good?"
And so it was—I think I'm landing on—personal brand is truly personal. Am I grounded in the person I want to be? And am I using that to shine on myself, my work, and the people around me?
Paula Edgar: I love that. I love the context around it because I do think a lot of people perceive personal branding as a concept as inauthentic. What I have been trying to drive in this podcast is that the personal piece of it is always going to be authentic. It's always going to be you.
Obviously, we have different contexts that we're looking to. You maybe have a different mission and vision, but you is always the same in terms of the quality, the values, the things that you have.
But I love the context because I'm sure, and I know, a lot of people feel that, and they especially feel the pull for likability. The benefit of being in my late 40s has been that I don't care. I like to be liked, but I don't care if you like me or not. It's going to—you don't get what you get and you don't get upset, like they say in kindergarten. It is what it is.
So tell me more about Gabrielle. How would you describe yourself in three words or short phrases?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Well, first I just have to say, Paula, I think maybe if you had been the one teaching us personal branding, I would have had a very different relationship with it.
But I think of myself as relentlessly curious. I am an enthusiastic connector of people, of ideas, of opportunities, and I feel very dignity-centered.
Paula Edgar: I definitely do see the connector piece a lot in terms of the engagement. I love curiosity for anybody. So what is your favorite quote? Your favorite quote or motto? What's something that's resonating for you right now?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Oh, so I have two. One that is literally right here on my wall that I see all day, every day: "We rise by lifting others." I think that it is simple, true, and the core of how I try to lead and remind myself constantly.
The other one that I have fully embraced and adopted is, "Live life as if everything is rigged in your favor." It's a Rumi quote. I think that it connects to this idea of pronoia, which is the opposite of paranoia. So the idea that the universe is conspiring to help you, not to destroy you.
It's this, "Just assume good intent." It lets you shed off a lot of other stuff. Then I assume, "Okay, that didn't go so well, but something good is coming because life is rigged in my favor."
Paula Edgar: I love that. You know, I talk a lot—I live and breathe intentions and goal setting. I like the intention of wanting to have interactions that are positive. I remember when I was first starting out doing training and education, I went to a session on unconscious bias and they were like, "Assume good intent."
This woman stood up and she was like, "I can assume what I want, but everybody doesn't have good intent." I was like, "Oh." But to that end, for it to be an assumption, I think it's a good one because we have so much going on, especially the way the world is at all times, that it does help.
I do think setting our body to want to receive positivity and engagement around whatever it is we're looking for is a good thing.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Yeah. Well, and I think people may not have a good intent, but the universe has good intent for you. So all of these things are for us.
Paula Edgar: I love that. So when we're about to get full on—coming into the room, all Gabrielle Kohlmeier—what song is playing? What's your hype song?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Oh, this one's so hard. I feel like my favorite song of all time is Nina Simone's Feeling Good. That's just my number one. But if I'm honest, if I'm coming in getting pumped up—very influenced by my kids—I love the songs from Zootopia. I love Try Everything. I feel like it's right on.
Then when I'm feeling a little bit diminished and I need to pull myself back up, I love Taylor Swift's Bejeweled. I like the little sass that it has to it. And then if I'm just needing to remember how lucky I am, I love Dolly Parton's Faith.
Paula Edgar: Oh, that's a really great and eclectic mix of songs.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: That's me, Paula.
Paula Edgar: The soundtrack is going to be on fire. Okay, so let's jump into this. Tell me, where did you grow up and how do you think that shaped you professionally?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: So I grew up outside of the U.S. I grew up in Berlin, Germany, while there was still a wall. So I grew up in divided, occupied Berlin in a multicultural household. My mom was American. My dad is German.
So I think what it meant for me is having a whole lot of different perspectives and views, but also never feeling like an insider and feeling very much like, "I want to understand the context. I want to read the room. I need to understand what are the competing perspectives that I'm dealing with."
Because we were occupied by the U.S., the U.K., France, and the USSR at the time—now Russia—and bordered by nine different countries, you are constantly faced with very different people, perspectives, life experiences.
I also came from a very brilliant and very confident family that made me feel very much like, "I don't know anything because they know so much." I think that that has given me a strong sense of humility at all times and curiosity to try to learn as much as I can.
So now I really lead with that curiosity and try to understand how others are experiencing the world because I'm keenly aware that we're not experiencing it the same way. But the best thing really has been that I don't have any shame anymore about not knowing things.
Kind of what you were saying before, Paula, it's been one of the joys of getting older that I don't have that imposter syndrome. I don't have that. I have more, "Oh, what an opportunity to learn something new."
Paula Edgar: I love that. That's a good perspective to have no matter what. I like the takeaway. I reflect on growing up in a house with—I have two immigrant parents from Barbados and from Jamaica—had very high expectations, were very smart, and also liked to debate. So I don't know where I get this from. I'm just kidding.
So tell me how we got from Germany to where we are now. Tell me about your trajectory in terms of your career.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Well, we moved to the U.S. when I was about 13, to North Carolina. It was a stark, eye-opening experience, very, very different.
I'll just share, I went to an international school. It was the John F. Kennedy School. We learned about the civil rights movement every day. Martin Luther King had a dream, and I understood its meaning, and we had righted those civil rights.
So coming to the U.S. and seeing that not officially, but de facto, things were still very segregated was shocking. I think that that again just made me really want to understand more. "What are all of these different experiences that I was totally unaware of?" I was very curious about so many things that the idea of going to school for just one thing was not for me.
So I went to law school, and I was told by someone that I worked for that law school would be this passport to do anything. So that sounded really great. Love passports.
That led me down the trajectory of, okay, well, then you get shuttled down the path. So I went into Big Law because I actually really loved law school a lot more than I expected. I liked somebody pointing the way. So that drove me to Big Law, and fear of failure at the time made me really good at it, or so I thought.
So that really was my entree into law. I had this mixed relationship with it initially where I loved the law, but I constantly felt like, "Well, everybody else really knows what they're doing." That was how I spent my Big Law career.
I was an antitrust lawyer doing both complex litigation and then a lot of merger and acquisitions, government advocacy work. Then I was recruited to come in house. Right around that exact time, I learned about growth mindset. That to me was this eye-opening moment of, wait a minute, people are allowed to fail. Not only that, that is how you actually learn in advance. That was just such a huge shift for me that it really changed the entire trajectory of my career.
Paula Edgar: Talk to me a little bit about what grit and growth mindset means to you. Why is it something that you're so passionate about and engaged in?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Oh, my favorite things to talk about. So I think lawyers overall are very gritty. This idea of grit and growth mindset goes back to research that actually predates the work of the ABA Commission on Women in the Profession, goes to Angela Duckworth did this research around grit. It's really how do you stick with, how do you have the persistence to stick with your goals and actually progress towards the outcomes that you're trying to realize?
And Carol Dweck did this research around growth mindset, where fixed mindset is this idea that I only have a certain capacity and I am forced to operate within that capacity. Whereas the growth mindset is this, I'm constantly growing and expanding. So the beauty of this whole idea of growth mindset is that failure really is this first attempt in learning. It is not now you are out, which is what I felt very deeply throughout most of my Big Law career. But that in order to expand our capacity and grow, we actually need to do these things that stretch us. By definition, that means we're not going to be super successful at them.
So taking the risk is what grows us as opposed to don't take risks that expose that you are not perfect. Because it's like, of course, I have to try in order to get better and better and better.
Paula Edgar: Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're both commissioners on the ABA's Commission on Women. Shout out. Shout out to the ABA and the Commission on Women. We've had a lot of conversations about this because the research that was done through the commission just turned 10 years old recently and so I guess we're in our 11th year, the conversation around what it means to be gritty in terms of you and the environment as well as gritty in a team and really the resilience.
And I think of, I see whenever I say grit and growth mindset, I see something like, I see like all right, like duck down, like you got to just figure it out. And I like that you framed it in terms of essentially leaping towards failure sometimes, because that's not usually what type A folks do, right? We're like, we don't want to be imperfect, we don't want to fail, but in this landscape that we're living in of innovation, which we're going to get into, if you're not trying, you are stuck, right? You don't have that growth mindset. So I love that you talked about it.
It's a two-pronged thing. So I think for all of you who are listening, for me, it's like how you get through, how you achieve, how you push through, and where is this—this is like the need to push through and to do it in a way that may not be successful, but to continue to do so towards your goals, which is, you know, I guess we're always in the space, at least if we're having growth mindset, that we're not stuck so we should be doing something. My therapist, as everybody knows I quote, says growth begins where comfort ends. So you can't be comfortable. I keep pushing.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Yeah. Well, I think it also, to me, goes so much to what you are so expert in and teaching us all: how do I know myself so that I can have a personal brand that is authentic? That is all of that. Because if I also know myself, then I know how am I using grit towards my definition of success, not towards someone else's. I think that's where grit gets really dangerous, when it's be gritty so that you can be exploited more towards somebody else's goals.
But when I am grounded to myself and I know what is important to me, and sometimes that might be to other people's benefits, sometimes there might be multifaceted parts to that. There have been decisions that I've made where I'm like, I know this is not my ideal situation, but I am willing to put up with this because I see this benefit to myself. So I think it requires that deliberation and that self-knowledge so that you really can maximize it, then lean into the things where I'm uncomfortable, but this is towards the things that I believe in that serve my integrity.
Paula Edgar: Yeah. Yeah. Gritty requires introspection. So does personal brand and also strategy. Right, like thinking to what end. I like that connection.
So speaking of the ABA Commission on Women, one of the innovative initiatives that came out of the 10-year milestone of the Grit and Growth Mindset research was the 21-Day Grit and Growth Mindset AI Challenge. So I know this is one of your babies, so tell me all about it.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: It is my baby. So we did a 21-day grit and growth mindset challenge about five years ago, right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was like, okay, guys, we really need to pull into that grit and growth mindset resource, understand how do we get through these things that are requiring a lot of grit and also seeing things more broadly. People loved it. It was this thing that really brought people together. The idea was to build habits because 21 days is the timeframe for building a habit.
So as I was seeing more and more of the research from my day job around AI and looking at AI, both from a legal and regulatory perspective, but also from an AI adoption perspective, because that was where I was charged with moving things forward the last several years of my career, it was seeing divides where there are certain groups, women and other underrepresented groups in particular, that were not adopting AI. We've seen that happen with other technology. So there's this technology gender gap.
So to me, as being part of the Commission on Women in the Profession, how do we make sure that women have the same opportunities and that there is equal gender representation and gender opportunities? This just seemed like such a necessary initiative for us to go after. Leveraging what we had found a lot of success with previously, I was like, okay, 21 days to build this AI fluency. Because what I also found in my day job was you need people to interact with it regularly. There are AI experts. Ethan Mollick is one of them, that says to spend 10 hours with AI and it will transform your relationship with it so that you have this level of fluency. I think that's really what the goal of the challenge is.
It's not for everyone to be an AI expert. It's not for everyone to be AI first. I hate the term AI first because to me, it's knowing enough to know what do you want to do with it. Again, being deliberate about it and knowing enough to be part of the really important conversations that are taking place around it, whether that is in our law firms, companies, organizations, bar associations, communities, schools, all of those spaces, there are conversations taking place and people that are making decisions around how this technology is being used and knowing what it does, how it works, what different capabilities are gives us the ability to be part of those conversations.
Then there are a lot of things that are really cool about it that I do want to use. Then there are things where I personally think, I really love that it does that. I'm not going to do that because I don't feel comfortable with where this is going in the future. So a lot of it is understanding, having awareness, and just getting that fluency so that we can be part of the conversation and make decisions for ourselves.
So the idea is to have this 21-day format that's really accessible to anyone. We have this under the umbrella of the American Bar Association, but honestly, Paula, I've had my kids do it. So it is for anyone. I like to think about it like a fitness class where you start from where you are. You could be a beginner and you could be an advanced user and you will still get something out of it because you are engaging your muscles and you can push yourself to try out different things.
Or you can think about it kind of like a book where you go back and then you're like, oh, now I understand that. Now I have a different level of meaning that I'm able to draw from that. It's hopefully very accessible in the sense that it's 10 to 30 minutes a day. You don't have to do it every single day. It's 21 days over whatever time span you want. So it combines this short AI concept, a practical reflection or action step, and then the mindset component that's grounded in the grit and growth mindset research. So tying it all together so that people stay gritty and growth minded around it.
Paula Edgar: Give me an example of one of the, one of the days. Like maybe do you have a favorite day of the challenge?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Oh, I don't have a favorite day, but I think that because it changes, right? Because it also, same thing where I actually loved the day where you get into how can you use it to wrangle data? Because that was just something that I did not use it for. We go into how can you create charts and all kinds of more detailed data reports. As, you know, I have an econ degree. So I was like, "Well, this is very cool." I can build dashboards and I can build metrics. So that was very exciting for me.
But I think when I really think about what do I use these things for the most for myself, a lot of it is leadership, preparing for different hard conversations or how can I create opportunities for my team? How can I create good activities? How can I prepare for this challenging conversation that I'm going to have with one of my clients, an executive? And it just allows me to be prepared and come into this conversation with that extra, "Okay, I've thought through different scenarios," and has given me a couple of things to think about and work through. So now I have more perspective when I enter. I think that levels me up as an executive going into these meetings.
Paula Edgar: Which is important for your personal brand.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Which is, yes.
Paula Edgar: Love that. So you talked about the data. Are there other tools? I want to tease for the folks. I want to make people be excited about this. You better be excited about it anyway, y'all. Because I know that there's so many people who are nervous and scared or maybe have not used these things to even their baseline capacity. One of the reasons why we wanted to have this conversation is to think about getting access. So give me some other things that are in there in terms of tools and exercises or prompts. A couple of examples.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Yeah. Well, let me even pull back and go through a little bit week by week because we really set it up so you can dive in wherever you want. I actually know professors that have taken day 17 and they use that for their classes, law school classes, college classes, things like that. Or I'm making up day 17. I don't even know which one day 17 is. Don't go to that one as if it's the best. But I'm just saying you don't have to do them all at once.
But if you were to do it, week one is really this idea of, okay, here's an orientation and foundations. Why does this matter? How do you choose the tools that you want to choose responsibly, safely? What are things to think about in terms of privacy, accuracy, governance? And it's really designed to be a little bit slower and more reflective because that's part of, like, how do I get comfortable with this? And what is some of the resistance around this, especially around people whose data has been exploited for a really long time. So, being aware, I think is so important. So the first week is centered around that.
Then week two is really, what are different ways that you can work with AI? And some people don't like positioning it in like AI as your intern, AI as your coworker, AI as your coach, AI as your professor. But I think that it helps just giving us ideas and sparking creativity around, okay, what would I like? I would love to have an executive coach on call all the time. I would love to have a personal branding expert on call all the time that can give me some insights or a couple of tips. Then I can talk to Paula and be like, "Was that right or not?" But I think it gives us different ways of thinking about using it as a thinking partner. How do I best communicate it? How do I collaborate with it in these different ways?
And then week three, which in some ways is my favorite week, is really about leadership and impact. So it's really digging into adaptive leadership and how do we approach these things in a way that are not only useful for how we're engaging with this, but so important in this moment. Because when I think about what are the skills that we need right now, it's not necessarily being an AI expert. It is being comfortable with change and being more comfortable with uncertainty and figuring out, okay, how do I regulate myself when I feel really uncomfortable with all of the things that are coming at us?
And so using this tool that is part of the things coming at us to help me process that and then be able to show up in a thoughtful way as the leader that I want to be, I think is huge and helps my decision-making and helps us figure out how do we use this as a complement and not a replacement because we have so much of the human skills that are really needed, but not if we are down in a fetal position somewhere.
Paula Edgar: Yes, and no, you're absolutely right. I think one of the things that people reflect on when it comes to AI and the opportunity is the, I guess, hesitation or fear of it replacing. Like to your point. I think that because of all this innovation happening, because of everything that's coming out really fast, there's even more of a need for personal interaction with all of these tools that are not necessarily personal, but we can leverage.
So I know that some of the abilities will force people to, speaking of growth mindset, have to innovate for themselves, right? To have to do a little bit differently, better, because to be frank, I think a lot of folks have become comfortable, right? They've been comfortable. So now we're like, oh, you mean that spreadsheet that I used to do, like, that would take me four days, can take 20 seconds. It just makes you think about your building your skill set, what your skill set is and how you bring the you to the work that you do in a very different way and using it, as you're saying, as a complement, a partner versus a replacement. So I'm glad you brought that up. So, okay, that's exciting.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: So one thing that I'll share that I've really loved using it for is I'm somebody that processes things by talking. So I love talking to you, Paula. And, you know, like my close board of advisors. Sometimes I would feel like I don't want to veer towards gossiping, but I need to process this. I have found that having a pre-conversation with an AI tool helps me parse out, I just need to get this out of my system. Then I can go have the really connective conversation that has the gossip part filtered out.
So then I feel better about myself. I mean, we can still find the fun gossip, but not the thing that I just don't feel good about afterwards. I really just wanted to work through it and then have a real conversation with somebody that I respect that is human. Because I've never found that the conversation with Claude or one of the other tools, it doesn't replace humans to me. It never has, but it makes me show up as the better human that I want to be in my human interactions.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, it gives you processing space, like space to be able to… when I think of this as that you have a good friend who's like, this is my therapist. I'm like, I mean, it can help. It's not just therapist. But it can give you some perspective before you engage in your therapy. Like, okay, here's the thing that happened. I took away a little bit of the emotion of it. I'm looking at some of the facts because it's not emotional. It's a computer.
Then going to work on the you part of it. It's also iterative. I also find that sometimes my tool, whichever one I'm using, can narrow down for me really quickly what the me issue is. I'm like, oh, fine. So you're saying I don't like to be told what to do. Understood. Got it. No problem. Whatever. It is what it is. So I started to get into the hesitations around that. What are your thoughts about why folks might be a little bit hesitant right now to adopt even trying AI?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Well, I think even with what we're talking about, and I think that there are such great uses with exactly what we just talked about. But I'm still being really careful about what do I actually share? Because it's not even just about that conversation. It's about the connection of that conversation with all of these other data points that your AI tool may have from you because it has stored prior conversations. If you have not turned off the setting that allows it to do that, it can connect with data points that exist about you out in the web because it is growing and it's looking for different things.
Some of those might be right. Some of them might not. I do think about, okay, where is that going to go? Because that's how my brain always works. You know, what are the second, third, fourth order effects down the line? So I'm really careful about what am I putting in that. I completely understand people that they want more certainty and they want to make sure that the tool is actually protecting. I think that there are things that we can do so that you are very deliberate about the uses. If you're using it for work, using enterprise grade that comply with your enterprise policies, organization, firm, whatever.
But I think then there's also the… so there are a couple of other things besides those very real and valid concerns. These are also, I think, in many ways, very valid. One is time. You know, there are just a lot of times like, oh, yes, I definitely want to do that. But then life and work and everything happens and you're like, okay, I'll work on that tomorrow, 15 days and you just don't get around to doing the thing that might save you time because you don't have time.
So I think time is a real challenge and a real hurdle. That's another reason why we try to make these really bite-sized and not say, "Okay, here's an intensive. Just do two hours a day for five days." But it was, "Look, do 10 minutes. If all you've got is 10 minutes, it will still build up and you will still go further."
I think another one is overwhelm, burnout, and really, frankly, disappointment of past tech promises that didn't deliver. I think that there's the, oh, yeah, there's always the tool that everybody says, oh, this is so great. But what is it actually doing? And this thing hallucinates, and how useful is it? And I think that's where you get in there and you figure out what are the things that are useful.
And I think where we really need to build that growth mindset and grit part is the tools are also constantly changing. So you can't base how useful it is on your interaction with it a year ago or six months ago, or even frankly last week. It's okay. What's it doing now? And I don't think that we need to get into a stress mode of, well, what's it doing now? But just being open to exploring what might be useful to me, talking to other people, seeing ways that we can use this.
Then I think the last one to me is fear: fear of change, fear of looking foolish, fear of being wrong. We've seen lots of lawyers get caught up in that. It just keeps on coming. But I think we know how to vet what output is. So going in with a healthy dose of skepticism and using it in different ways that you can see, okay, where is it working well for me, where isn't. You know, that's part of this challenge that hopefully gives you time, not just to do the things, but pause and reflect on the output that you got.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, that's the mindset piece that's connecting to the mindset piece. Okay, so we've talked about there, we talked about those other pieces. Tell me why you think that it's important for particularly women and underrepresented folks to engage with AI now from the podcast is about branding and positioning perspective. What is this going to mean for those groups? You know, you started saying that the lack of access can be a challenge, but what happens, what's the opportunity and the challenge?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: So the reason why I think that this is so critically important is because the data keeps showing us that women are underrepresented among early AI adopters in particular. They are underrepresented in the rooms where AI governance and policy and laws are being made. They are underrepresented in the development of the tools, which means that they are not being designed to meet our needs necessarily.
Maybe as a side matter, but not from the perspective of lived experience. I think we've seen in every product that that is to the detriment of everyone. You know, the more that we get broader perspectives, the better off we all are. I want really good governance and I want really good tools that I can use because we have really good governance. So there is that trust. I think we have to have women, and especially underrepresented women and other people, as part of the conversation. So to me, that is why it's so critical.
Then the other part is that there are a lot of things that we can do using these tools that help our brands, that give us a leg up. When I was thinking about this conversation, because I don't think about personal branding a whole lot, but I was like, oh, I've got to think about this to talk to Paula. But I was remembering that when I first moved to DC and I was starting off, I would shine by putting in that extra effort of not just delivering a substantive report, but making it really visually appealing and pretty.
So I had a defense client that I was putting together this weekly digest for, and it could have just been a Word doc that had like, you know, here are the key things for you to focus on. But instead I created a brief and I had a splashy headline with the company's colors as the front thing. I remember I was working for a former ambassador at the time and he called me to his office when I first sent it over. I was like, "Oh no, he hates it." 'Cause, you know, it's a little bit vulnerable to do the thing that other people were not doing.
He was like, "I don't like this." I was like, "Oh no." He's like, "I love this." I was like, "Oh," and it got me invited to the meetings with the clients. I was a graduate fellow at the time. I was like lowest of the low. It got me into all of these spaces because they loved this brief that looked nice. And I did the same thing with a lot of the things that I was doing in my law, from putting together events that were not just, hey, everybody show up, but what's the swag? What's the sparkle?
Actually, right here I'll show you because it just happens to be here. I would put on these women events and I would make postcards, and I'd be like, you know, it needs to look pretty so that people want to keep these things and keep them around and keep them inspired. Same thing with my substantive legal work where it was like, I'm talking to people that don't have a lot of time or bandwidth. So how am I going to make them remember and how am I going to make them want to have this meeting with me as opposed to, okay, I got to get this over with so that I can get back to my work. A lot of that was, how can I make it pretty?
And I think one of the things that these tools do is for people that are not very creative, or people who maybe like me are extremely creative, but it's like, it's impossible to actually get that in there. Or I spent weekends, like the entire weekend, trying to make this thing look perfect. Now we can do it in a very reasonable amount of time and stand out and shine. So putting in that extra thought, because you do have to actually think about it and connect more with what is going to resonate with this audience, but now you can bring that to life in a different way. So I think that it does really create opportunities to stand out.
Paula Edgar: A hundred percent, which all of you know, value, visibility, and also quality, right? It's branding. So if we can help to accelerate, it doesn't take the you out of it, it puts a bow on it or helps you to get to your end result a little bit faster, then we should be utilizing as many tools as we can in order to help. Because I do think the way you prepare and the way a lot of things you said were being pretty. I'm like, yes, because it's not saying pretty without value and without quality and excellence. It's saying that you are putting thought and effort into how things show up. That is branding.
Oftentimes people will think about branding as just what you see, but it's not because you find out pretty quickly if somebody shows up pretty and there's nothing or something goes up there and it's not there. So it's always the combination of the two.
So let's jump into this. What are some of your favorite AI tools right now? What are you using before I need to know? This is for me.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: I mean, I guess I can say this. I love Claude. We have a really good relationship, and I'm loving Vibe Coding. So right now I have been building all of these apps, and I am not a coder whatsoever. I am a pretend technologist because I earnestly love learning and going deep on things.
Legal technology has been part of my job for the recent past, as has been organizational change and how do you get people to do things differently. I got my degree in AI and law, but it was very much about the theory and the legal frameworks. So the idea that I'm building apps is crazy. I'm building all kinds of apps, Paula.
I started doing ballet, and I have a daily ballet tracker. Am I doing my exercises? And so then I was like, well, great. I'm going to create a daily volleyball tracker for my kids. Then I was like, I'm going to create a daily chore tracker. Just all of these different things, because I really wanted to see how useful are these things. You know, I think that this kind of goes to what is hype, what is actually useful. Some of these things are more useful than others, but what can they actually do? How much maintenance do they actually require? And it has been really fun being able to bring things to life.
So in addition to using AI for my leadership thinking, I create a lot of research dossiers on different people that I'm interacting with or different issues that I want to go deeper on. Vibe Coding has been a really fun and surprisingly effective experiment that is both, you feel so good because you're like, "I created this." Then you can actually use the AI to be like, "Look, I don't actually know how to do this. Walk me through this. What do I need to do next? What else should I be thinking about when I'm creating this app? How do I make it more fun for my 10-year-old?" All these different things.
So it's really the opportunity to work with us. Then you also see, well, this did not work. I think that that is another part of the challenge that is really helpful to see. It's not this magical thing that is perfect at everything by any stretch of the imagination. There are times when it falls flat on its face.
I had one of the AI tools create an image for Galentine's Day to send to some of my Galentines. It said, I'm creating a stunning image of women that are empowered or whatever. I looked at it and it was horrifying. I was like, I am stunned. You are correct, but not in the way you want me to be. I was not. But that, I think, is really helpful to also take some of the fear out, right? To recognize there is this jagged edge of where AI will really surprise you with how good it is. Then sometimes it will really surprise you with how bad it is. Seeing that, I think, is also really, really important and useful.
Paula Edgar: I was listening to a podcast, and I can't remember who the person was, but basically they said, you have to be comfortable with cheating on your AI. I was like, and basically the person was saying, like, having one is great to get used to it. But really where the power comes in is where you're seeing the benefit of having multiple.
One of my favorite use cases of AI is to have them fight against each other. I'll be like, well, this other AI said this. What do you say about that? And they'll be like, well, that's okay. It's a little bit better. They'll be like, well, why don't you tell it this one? And I'll take it right back to the other one. Then the output ends up being so high level because I've done that sort of, and that would be days and weeks and months of me by myself doing that kind of brainstorming, that back and forth. So I really love that as a thing, a lot, a lot.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: I think, and as much as you're saying, you're not now having to spend days and weeks and months on it, you still have to spend time on it. I think that's another thing that's really important to understand. There is actually research that's probably like a year or two old at this point. But they found that people that were awed by AI actually thought that it was amazing, actually had much lower value output.
People that were like, "Yeah, it's not that great," were the ones that had much better output because they spent more time with it, because they didn't just take the first answer. Because they went to that next level of what you did where you're like, "Okay, that sounds good. But what is that guy going to say? Okay, what's your response to that?" That takes a lot of effort and time and thinking. So to me, it's not necessarily, how can I just shortcut everything, go this, but how can I use this to really elevate my thinking, to be strategic? And in a lot of situations, have access to resources and thinking that I just wouldn't have had access to before.
I wouldn't have been able to find a strategic partner to talk me through every single thing that I want to talk through. Now we do. We have to be, I think, sometimes a little bit, okay, let's test it against others. But I think it's such a good point, Paula, both in terms of what a great use of playing the AIs off of each other, but also you're putting time in. I think that, again, goes such a long way.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, I think about the time and I also think about the time I saved because, like I said, it would have been weeks and months as opposed to me sitting with it for even a half hour, an hour is like doing a lot of things.
So tell me this, how do you think someone can begin using AI in a way that enhances their voice rather than replaces it?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Hmm. I think that one of the things that I find super fun and interesting, because I think overall, we don't often get a whole lot of time to do a lot of self-reflection. If this is a tool that you use to get to know yourself better, and you can get AI to actually ask you some of those questions that then you ponder, and you don't have to put your answers into AI, but you could, and then you could go deeper. But the people that I find most interesting are the people that have really spent that time to know themselves and that are the least preachy and sure about answers generally, but that I feel like we're on this path exploring together, because clearly they are on a path of exploration, whether it is a substantive area that we are trying to move forward on, but I can tell that they're doing it on themselves as well.
So I think in terms of how do we use AI in a way that doesn't take away our voice, if you're not clear on your voice and if you're not making sure that your voice is part of it, but you're just taking that first answer, you're going to get such a flat, boring response. Even things I have used it in different situations where, like, inspired by such and such organizational psychology researcher, and say, but then everything sounds the same every single time. I get very bored with the output very quickly.
So I think figuring out ways to keep it dynamic by bringing your magic to it both helps you retain that magic and actually enhance it. But it also makes it more likely that you'll keep engaging because you won't get bored with the tool.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, there will be times when I'll say to the [insert tool here], whichever one I'm going to use, make this in my voice. Now, because we've been co-creating and working so much, it will be like, "You know what, Paula, you're right. Like, this doesn't sound like you because you would never say this thing." I love that because for me, it's shortcutting getting to me faster.
But to your point, just like with branding, if you don't have the assessment of who you are and what your core values, like the things, like I'm always like, I would never say that. So, and you know that. So let's do this again differently. It's like, okay, I've even gone so far as putting my podcast transcripts in and to say, like, what are some words that I say often in my podcast that I don't even realize? That was an interesting one. I was like, you know what? I say whatever I want. I say that I say magic a lot in my podcast. That's okay because it's my podcast and it's my magic and branding is your magic. So there's that.
Anywho. Okay, so as, of course, I knew this conversation was going to go fast. You should know that you can come on here and talk about whatever newest AI thing that you want whenever you want to. But as we get into the close of the conversation, I hope that people are thinking about just dipping their toes in or doing a little bit different, doing a little bit more to their benefit, to the benefit of their profession, their brand, finding out ways to make this a little bit better.
But I always ask everybody the last three questions on my podcast. So we're going to get to those, which is this. I've added a little tinge to it for you. So, stand by your brand is something I want to think about. Like, what is that thing about your brand that you would never compromise on? But for you, I want you to think about it. As technology evolves, what will you never compromise in terms of your brand?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: For me, I think it really goes back to dignity. I think that a lot of the pushes that I've gotten from leaders when it comes to technology is just do it. Just tell people to adopt it. Just push this forward, just implement it. I think it doesn't work if it's not dignity-centered. You lose the value, plus it is out of alignment with how I show up, and I hope I show up, how I want to show up. I think that it actually makes us much better.
I would also go with the idea of we're moving towards a world where AI is going to be a teammate. They're going to be our co-workers. They're going to be our co-collaborators. I think showing up with dignity towards the AI that we're using as well is also going to be really important to how we do things. So to me, I hope that I never compromise.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, be kind to your AI, just in case. I realized I forgot to ask one very important question. So you'll have to give me a minute or so, which is, so I'm going to fix it up a little bit. I ask everybody what they do for fun. But I'm going to ask you, what is the funnest thing that you have done outside of your ballet and with one of your AI tools? What has been like something that brought you joy?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Oh, with one of my AI tools. So I love exploring. I love traveling. I love seeing different things. So a lot of times I will end up in different places that I don't know well. My goal is to maximize every second of my time there by seeing as much as I possibly can. Museums, trails, walking through the city. I use AI all the time to be like, I have 2.5 hours in San Antonio, Texas. You know, what are the things that I can do in that time? And it has been not always 100%, right? Because sometimes it's like, go do this. I'm like, that's not even open anymore. But it has definitely given me lots of different ideas.
So one thing that I recently did doing this is my daughter and I were in Berlin about two weeks ago. What I found, thanks to AI, was that they have converted some of the old, like, phone booths, public phone booths, into the world's tiniest discos. So we found those and there's like a tiny disco ball in there, and you put in a Euro and it'll play a song that you want and you just jam out in this whole thing. So that was an AI-inspired find. It was so fun.
Paula Edgar: So, of course, I'm going to ask this next question. I'm like, is there like a camera in there that's recording you and you're dancing?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: I hope not for everybody's sake. We were dancing like nobody's watching.
Paula Edgar: That is great. Okay. So Branding Room Only is a play on the term standing room only because I am clever. So what is your magic? What is the thing that would bring somebody to a room and it would only be standing room, no seats left to experience about you?
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: I think that it's my energy. I think that I bring a lot of energy to the things that I do because I get so excited about them. Because I think that I am, I have an awe radar. So I just find these things that I just find so amazing. Then I cannot wait to share them with others, whether that is AI and like, look what this can do and how this can make things better.
Then let's also think about the things that we need to get in check so that we can actually use these things. But I think that my brain is just attuned to seeing awe and wonder all over and then having a deep need to share it. That creates this energy. Then that leads to those connections, like how can we connect these ideas and people and opportunities?
Paula Edgar: Well, having been in a room with you where I experienced that, I can say that that is true, that there's an electric energy and a knowledge that you're going to get something done because of how excited you are about it. So the brand is aligned. So tell everybody how they can stay connected to you and learn more about you and definitely learn about the 21-Day Grit and Growth Mindset AI Challenge.
Gabrielle Kohlmeier: Thank you for that opportunity. So the ABA's Commission on Women in the Profession has a landing page for all things Grit Project. I'm so proud of the journey that we've been on with Grit because it started off, as we mentioned, with being a gritty individual and all of the research that shows, like, these are the qualities that lead to people staying in the profession.
Then we move to, but what about gritty teams? Because a whole bunch of gritty individuals does not actually make a gritty team. So there's research around that and action packages that we put together on how can you bring this to your teams? And I'm hoping that we get to the third part of that, which is gritty ecosystem. So stay tuned for that.
But that page has the 21-Day original Grit and Growth Mindset Challenge. We're doing a refresh of it. That's coming soon. So come back early and often. That's also where you'll find the 21-Day AI Challenge. For me, I'm most easily found on LinkedIn. I'm trying, especially right now, to be very active and get lots of focus on grit and Gritty March, March with Grit, coined by the one and only Paula Edgar. So definitely connect with me on LinkedIn. I have lots and lots of vowels in my last name. I'll let you look at the last name in your show notes, Paula. But I would love to be connected with any and everyone in your audience.
Paula Edgar: Fantastic. Everybody, make sure you tell folks about this conversation because we know in the Branding Room, we don't like to be left behind. Gabrielle had a lot to share, lots of good best practices, interesting use cases, and obviously a tool to help people delve in a little bit more. Gabrielle, thank you for being on the podcast. You're welcome back anytime you'd like. Everybody, see you next time in the Branding Room. Stand by your brand. Bye.
That's it for this episode. I appreciate you hanging out with me on Branding Room Only. Now, please do me a quick favor: head over to ratethispodcast.com/branding so more people can join this conversation. And make sure to stop by at paulaedgar.com/events to see what's next. Whether I'm live, online, or in person, I'd love to see you there. See you next time in the Branding Room. And until then, stand tall, shine bright, and always stand by your brand.
