The Social Billionaire: Networking, Personal Brand, and the Wealth Hiding in Plain Sight with J. Kelly Hoey

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Description

J. Kelly Hoey was the very first guest on Branding Room Only, and more than 100 episodes later, she's back. This time she's bringing a new book, a rabbit hole's worth of research, and a framework that challenges what most women have been told about how to build the relationships and the personal brand that move their careers forward.

Kelly is a lawyer turned entrepreneur, networking expert, and bestselling author whose career has spanned big law, venture capital, and leading global communities. In her new book, The Social Billionaire, she draws on years of research showing that the women who flourish professionally do not mimic men. They follow a different playbook, one built on a specific network structure, a particular kind of focus, and the grit to keep showing up for it. 

In this episode of Branding Room Only, Paula T. Edgar and Kelly get into why so many women are doing all the right things and still not getting results, the network structure that high-achieving women use to get ahead, why your personal brand determines who is willing to vouch for you behind closed doors, and why the wealth you have been searching for might already be sitting right outside your office door.

Chapters

1:35 – Kelly’s shifted perspective on networking and personal brand since her last show appearance, and why she wrote her newest book

2:43 – Why following networking advice tailored for men might actually be hindering your professional growth

8:33 – Kelly’s three-part framework and how it works as a filter for every goal, opportunity, and decision you face

18:08 – How a curated tribe of like-minded peers (when done right) changes everything else downstream for high-achieving women

24:18 – How strategic and reactive networks differ, and why trust is the currency that makes the whole thing work when you need it most

27:22 – Why some women feel resistance in making connections with women specifically (and people, in general) when it comes to networking

28:57 – Networking habits that might be hurting your brand and the current communication struggle some people have with others

39:12 – Why the wealth you need may already be hiding in plain sight

42:43 – How writing The Social Billionaire has changed the way Kelly shows up in, and the first move to make if you need to rethink your network

45:34 – The one relationship you’re probably ignoring that needs your attention right now, and the importance of seeing where you’re directing your energy

51:03 – The one shift Kelly wants you to make after reading her book, even if you do nothing else

54:57 – One thing about relationship-building that Kelly will never compromise on

Connect With J. Kelly Hoey

J. Kelly Hoey is the author of two books, The Social Billionaire: A Networking Roadmap for Women Seeking to Flourish and Achieve More and Build Your Dream Network. 

Her work lives at the intersection of research, strategy, and the messy, human reality of how careers actually move forward — through relationships.

Her latest book The Social Billionaire makes the case that for women, the right network is not a nice-to-have, it is what moves ambition forward. Drawing on evidence, case studies, four years of research, and two decades of working with high-achieving women, Kelly maps the specific social capital tools women need to reach the C-suite, the boardroom, and beyond.

Organizations that have brought Kelly in to speak include Google, Cisco, Pfizer, Prudential, Capital One, Westpac, the Tory Burch Foundation, J.P. Morgan Chase, and the PGA of America. She has addressed audiences including those at SXSW, the Grace Hopper Celebration, the European Commission, and the Conferences for Women across California, Pennsylvania, Texas, and Massachusetts. She co-created and moderated Apple’s Meet the Innovators speaker series and has appeared on CNBC.

Her insights have run in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Fast Company, Inc., Vogue.com, and Good Morning America, among others.

Before all of this, Kelly was a corporate attorney — first in Toronto, then in New York City. In 2009, a single network changed her career trajectory: she was asked to become the first president of 85 Broads, a global business network for women. From there, she co-founded one of the first startup accelerators focused on female-founded ventures and became a limited partner in two venture capital funds — before turning her full attention to writing and passing along her thoughts on networking.

Her books and writing:

The Social Billionaire: A Networking Roadmap for Women Seeking to Flourish and Achieve More

Build Your Dream Network: Forging Powerful Relationships in a Hyper-Connected World (Tarcher Perigee/Penguin Random House)

J in J Kelly on Substack

Build Your Dream Newsletter on LinkedIn

J. Kelly Hoey | LinkedIn

Mentioned In The Social Billionaire: Networking, Personal Brand, and the Wealth Hiding in Plain Sight with J. Kelly Hoey

Building Your Personal Brand Through Authentic Connections with J. Kelly Hoey

How to Assemble and Leverage Your Personal Board of Directors

Reframing Keeping in Touch with Jason Levin

The Four Confidence Leaks That Are Undermining Your Personal Brand

American Bar Association Commission on Women: The Grit and Growth Mindset Project

NYC Bar Association

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Sponsor for this episode

This episode is brought to you by PGE Consulting Group LLC.

PGE Consulting Group LLC empowers individuals and organizations to lead with purpose, presence, and impact. Specializing in leadership development and personal branding, we offer keynotes, custom programming, consulting, and strategic advising—all designed to elevate influence and performance at every level.

Founded and led by Paula Edgar, our work centers on practical strategies that enhance professional development, strengthen workplace culture, and drive meaningful, measurable change.

To learn more about Paula and her services, go to www.paulaedgar.com or contact her at info@paulaedgar.com, and follow Paula Edgar and the PGE Consulting Group LLC on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Paula Edgar: Welcome to Branding Room Only, the podcast where your personal brand gets a front row seat. I'm Paula Edgar and if you're here, it's because you know your brand isn't just about what you do, it's about how people experience you. In each episode, you'll hear stories, strategies and lessons from leaders and influencers who built their brands and made their mark. And I'll share the tools you need to do the same. Let's go. Hi, everybody. We're back in Branding Room Only with your host, Paula Edgar and I am very excited about the conversation that we are going to have today. Let me tell you about my guest. You already know her. My guest is J. Kelly Hoey and she is a networking expert and author of the newly released “The Social Billionaire”, a networking roadmap for women seeking to flourish and achieve more, as well as the bestselling Build Your Dream Network. Her career has spanned from big law to entrepreneurship, venture capital and leading global communities, all grounded in her expertise in building strategic, meaningful connections. Today, she's a sought-after speaker and advisor helping professionals rethink networking as a power driver of success. Kelly, welcome back to the branding room. J. Kelly Hoey: I am so excited to be back. I always love having conversations with you, Paula. And so thank you. Thank you for inviting me back into the room. Paula Edgar: Of course. I'll have you back for every single book you write. So continue to write them. They're all good. All right, let's jump in. So you were my very first guest on this podcast and now we're 100 plus episodes in. So we're excited about that. Tell me, what do you think has changed in how you think about networking and personal brand, since we last spoke? J. Kelly Hoey: Ooh, that's a great question to start off with. You know what, I think the principles, the foundational things you and I talk about and talked about before with networking and personal branding, it matters more than ever before, because of AI. We're craving authentic connections. We're craving to know it's a human being. And AI is flattening languages, throwing more crap at us. And I think, you know, that’s… I think what you and I talk about is more important now than ever before. Paula Edgar: I think that you're absolutely right. I did a presentation recently and I called it AI for personal branding, but the AI was Authenticity and Influence, because really thinking about how we need to bring more of ourselves and those connections you were talking about. I think that's a perfect tee up into this conversation. So what made you write this book, especially after you already had one? J. Kelly Hoey: You know what, part of writing this book was, I’ve been… because of Build Your Dream Network, I've been asked to comment on some research that showed that out of a women's leadership program, I suspect it was an MBA program, the women who… out of a pool of equally talented, equally ambitious and driven individuals, there was a pool of women who did better than a lot of their peers, including male peers and all of their female peers and they had a different communication structure. And that piece of research and commenting on it caused me to fall down a rabbit hole. Bless 2020, it had its upsides and its silver linings. I fell down the research rabbit hole. And that's when I was like, oh, there's a lot of research out there, not just on the network part, but what's holding women back, when it isn't bias, or, you know, systemic discrimination, those sorts of, you know, lack of child care, you know, you can do all the roster lists, but it was like this all this research. And I said there needs to be an accessible way for women to have this, so that's why I wrote this book. Paula Edgar: Okay. Well first of all, I have to do my pan of black, because I'm not… So here's the book. I love it. I started jumping into it already. And I love that it is a workbook, it says it makes you get into and do the things. But tell me what it is that you found in your research about the difference in networking playbooks not being designed for women traditionally. J. Kelly Hoey: Well, I mean, so many things are just, you know, women are told to mimic men, right? And following the advice of successful men, you know, like the research, this wasn't just, you know, what we as women know and experience, the research shows that's really bad advice. Because what these women did and in longitudinal studies within corporations, I mean, I looked at research from, you know, what was going on in corporate America to what was happening with women entrepreneurs in Bangladesh, you name it, I was reading the research. And, you know, the women who are being successful did not mimic the pattern of men. Things that you would say were, you know, a trait of women, in terms of long-term relationships, boom, that's a success factor. But it's also knowing when to slice and dice our network, who to tap into, who we're calling on to give us, you know, I want to say the really tactical stuff that we need to do tomorrow versus who we need to tap for social emotional help. So it was more of that and sort of saying, all right, the women who are successful are doing something differently. But just get out and network or just, hey, Joe's been successful, do what he does, bad advice for women. Paula Edgar: Yeah. So, I mean, I know a lot of people think that they're, you know, doing the right things, when it comes to networking, but they're not getting the results that they're looking for. In fact, I was just on another webinar that I was attending, where like seven or eight of the questions from the attendees were about, you know, I'm doing this, but it doesn't seem to be flipping over, why is this not working, et cetera, et cetera. What do you think is going on here? Where's that disconnect, in terms of results? J. Kelly Hoey: Some of it, I mean, it's like stepping back and saying, why isn't it working? Is my communication wrong? Am I asking the right person, but at the wrong timing for them, right? Am I going to the wrong person with the right ask? Have I approached this in, you know, there's all sorts of things, in terms of taking that big step back. When they say they're doing all the right things. I'm like, but what have you been led to believe are all the right things? Paula Edgar: And to your point earlier, are they the right thing for men, but different for women? J. Kelly Hoey: Well, exactly. Absolutely. And so this is where I had a conversation with a woman who's a… Well, who is a very senior executive and is in a transition period. And you were probably the same way. Look at a checklist thing. She's doing all the right things. Why isn't she landing this stuff? And it was near the end of our walk and talk. I said to her, boom, you've just listed what you need to be paying attention to right now. You've been doing this, you've been doing that, you've been talking to these people. She's got a clearer idea now on what she wants to do. She's been sort of working some of the Rolodex that hasn't been the return calls, things haven't happened. But a newer contact, a woman, said, I know exactly who you need to talk to. I know you already know them, but my administrative assistant can get you the meeting faster. She's going to make the meeting. Before you take that meeting, we're going to sit down, we're going to work through all this stuff. I'm like, you know, I said to this woman, find those people, because that's what you need right now. Not the calling on the favors of people that you've helped over your, you know, 30-year career. Not the right things that you were doing before. This is the tactical thing you need to do right now. Paula Edgar: The way that I connect this to branding, whenever I talk about branding, I always say, you can have a great brand without having a strategy, you can. But if you have a strategy, you are guaranteeing that you're filling out places that you may not have thought of before, because you're setting a vision, et cetera. And more so, if you show up some way that's outside of what people expect, they will forgive you more, because you have been consistent because you had a plan, right? Versus the not of it all. And so you have a framework that you have developed in this book called “Focus, Grit and Networks Equal Success”. Tell me what that looks like day to day. Like, what's my Tuesday morning action after reading that information? J. Kelly Hoey: Let me take a step back on it. The reason why and I love it, someone did a review of the book and said, this is a workbook for life. And I'm like, yeah, it kind of is. It's not just a networking book. And what I realized, when I was doing the research, it wasn't just the networking tactics. It wasn't just the network structure. There were a couple of other factors that were at play. And that's where the focus and the grit came in. So focus, your goals, your opportunities, your values. We're talking personal branding, values, consistency, personal brand, all that kind of good stuff. The grid was mindset, time allocation and self-care, which was a really… that over and over and over again came up, right? And then the networks, it was a very particular network structure, as well as sort of some key, sort of, high outcome networking tactics that women should deploy more and sort of naturally fit within our wheelhouse that we're not deploying. So that's how the, you know, how the book breaks out. So on a day-to-day basis, you know what, I'm going to give you an example from someone who was an early reader of the book. And she had, like the network she needed to tap for one of her, you know, business ideas, was like, like right there, like walk out the door of her office, walk across a small landing, knock on another door, it was right there and she wasn't taking that step. So I said to her, you need to go and read the chapter on focus. You need to figure out why you're not taking action steps on this goal. Like, what is the goal you're going after? Are you really committed to this? That's where the grit comes in. So why aren't you putting in the time and crossing the hallway? So I think on a day-to-day basis for someone, the focus, grit, networks, becomes like a brand filter. Is this tied to my goals? Is this an opportunity that I want? Does it feed the goal? Does it fuel me? Does it make me meet the right people? Is it aligned with my values? All of those things start to intertwine. Paula Edgar: I love that, you know, that it connects so well. You know, you can't have a flourish network without really thinking about the brand, because most of it is how people perceive, or are able to talk about you, as well as the way you talk and connect with people on your own. So it's like executive presence and network relationship building and personal brand. They all kind of live with each other in the same house and, you know, share a kitchen. So my thought about this, when you just talked about that example, was a couple of things. One, women in particular and perhaps this is because I was, I literally am in this right now, we have so much we have to do, right? And that is not, that's outside of the, if you choose to be a mother or not, or any of that, it's just the, the way in which I think most women that I know, for example, are built is that there's always a to-do list. There's always things that we are doing and then we get good at it and then people ask us to do more and then we do more and do more. And one of the things I often say, when I'm doing speaking engagements is, aren't you important enough to focus on yourself? Right. And so when I look at any kind of actionable life, like this is something that I was saying, committing to doing the work, because, you know, having a tool is great, but you've got to use the tool. J. Kelly Hoey: Right. Paula Edgar: And so, when you talked about this woman not having somebody within reach to make an ask to, I thought about the fact that I see all the time women are afraid to ask. What are your thoughts? What does the research say? Am I wrong? J. Kelly Hoey: Yeah, well, this is also to… I mean, it could be in the framing of the ask, it could be in terms of, you know, your own feelings of self worth, or I don't want to impose upon them. We'll get to the impose upon part. This is where I go, how committed are you to this thing? Are you not making the ask, because you're not committed to the goal? Right? If you're not making the ask, is it because you're sort of, is this the right opportunity for me? Okay. Well, how do you answer that question? Right. As opposed to procrastinating, you know… Paula Edgar: I feel like you're looking directly at me, Kelly. J. Kelly Hoey: No, no, no, I'm making sure I'm looking at the camera. Paula Edgar: When you said procrastinating, it looked directly at me. J. Kelly Hoey: Oh no, listen, you know, we all hesitate on things and then say, oh, you know, why am I not? Then if it's that feeling of, well, I don't want to bother, because I think that's where we often think with women. Now, if you go down, sort of like, okay, I'm committed to this goal and this person is the right person for me to pursue for that opportunity, do all that, why am I hesitating? Well, they're my good friend. Well, I kind of go to, well, why, how do you couch the ask, right? Hey, I know we're really good friends, but, or, and my product, my service is exactly what your company says it needs. I want the opportunity to pitch you. Where do we separate, you know, the social emotional from, you know, the business network, right? And so there is a muscle that I think of as a sort of vague umbrella generalization, where women need to be, you know, a little bit more like the guys. Okay. It's in terms of doing that, in terms of pitching our friends for business, or recommending our friends and not being afraid to say, here are the parameters. Here's what I need. Here's what the deliverables are. Here's what this is. You know, don't come crying to me if, you know, three parts into this approval process that it's too hard, because I'm telling you right now, this is the way my company works. Like being able to have that honest dialogue with each other so we can send the work to each other. Paula Edgar: I love that. And my word of the year is “ask”. So I love when I get the universe doing all the things that it needs to do, because I do think that a part of, you know, you asking or making the query, is this something you actually want? Like it makes you do that self-reflection to tap into what is stopping me? Is it fear? And then you get into that grit and that mindset. And I am one of the commissioners for the ABA's Commission on Women. And we have a whole research on grit and growth mindset. And we just celebrated 10 years of that initial research. And one of the things that it talks about is resilience and how to tap into that self-care piece and also understanding what your goals are, in order to kind of stay the line, toe the line. And so, but I guess, I never really thought about it in specific to like your relationship building. I thought about it in success generally, but of course success and relationship building go together. But I didn't think… so I love that you brought that into the framework so people can really think, yeah, sometimes it's hard. Sometimes we do got to dig in a little bit. Sometimes we got to step in. J. Kelly Hoey: And also too, if you're like, oh, this is, you know, like, why am I not putting in the effort? Right. And then you're like, oh, my, you know, think a lot for women, like our goals shift. Maybe it does for men, but we're talking about women right here. Your goals shift and all of a sudden you're like, oh, I'm not pushing for that thing, because actually I don't want that. Why has my grit dissipated? Or I'm really pushing hard on this and you're doing it, putting in so much effort, but you're stepping back and going, oh God, where are the other pieces that are not properly aligned so that my efforts are having the momentum that they should. Paula Edgar: I love it. So what do you think of the three parts of the framework, focus, grit, networks? Where do you see high achieving women getting it wrong the most in that framework? Is it the focus? J. Kelly Hoey: You know what, some of it depends. I think part of this and what I say to people is like, this book meets you where you are, right? For some people that are going to read through the focus and the grit piece, like boom, boom, boom and it's going to be on the networks. For other people, it might be, oh, I'm going to spend some serious time on the focus chapter because, you know, I don't know what my goal is. Paula Edgar: Right. J. Kelly Hoey: Or for somebody else, it may be the grit piece, because they have been pushing so hard, they're so depleted. They're not using their time wisely. Time allocation was a really big thing with these women. And as I said, self-care. I met this one woman, I think she was the CFO of a NASDAQ listed company. Sleep is so important to her. Literally, this woman will not function, but she is so type A driven working. It's like the family knows. Literally, her husband's like, let's turn off the computer. Let's power down the technology, let's power you down, your bath is poured, up you go to bed, like literally like tucking his wife in, knowing that she cannot do this big job, being you know, CFO, CTO of a NASDAQ company, if she doesn't get to sleep. And so it's literally the family that manages this, because she'll just keep working till burnout. So the book will meet people. But the biggest thing is, I think more than anything, is people probably will do and spend more time on the network piece. Paula Edgar: So let's get into that then. It's been said by someone, you, that sometimes women, women who succeed don't just network more, they network differently. J. Kelly Hoey: Right. Paula Edgar: What does differently actually look like in practice? Like, give me some of the pieces of “differently” for women. J. Kelly Hoey: Okay, so the big thing is and this is about the structure of your network, what the research shows is that the high-achieving women have a distinct network structure that they're pushing and pulling on, all the time. And to keep it simple, they have an inner circle of predominantly women, but not exclusively, who are like-minded, okay, so who are likely other-driven, motivated, in business, in their career types, who have diverse networks. So you've got this tribe around you, who you know are going to understand the, I would say, the challenges, they're not going to be like, well, Paula, why are you working so hard? Shouldn't you be… you know, they're not questioning your grit. They're not questioning your mindset. They're not questioning why you're pursuing. They get it. And they're giving you hard feedback, or opening doors, or saying your name behind closed doors. They're making introductions to get you where you want to go. The other thing these women do is make sure they're staying within the information flows that are critical in their industry. Now, does that mean they're on 15 different committees and doing this and doing that? Listen, there's times in our careers, we both look at each other as lawyers, right, you sift through. And then you're like, you know what, I got to dedicate time on this one. In this group or this industry organization, I'm good with the newsletter. Or this one, I just need to do the annual conference, but this one, I need to be more hands-on. But they've identified where they need to be and they make sure they stay on top of it. What was interesting from the first study, the men who excelled in the leadership program, they only needed that second network. They only needed that to be in the information flows of that general wider professional network and that got them ahead. Paula Edgar: Interesting. And I wonder what you think about this, because as you were saying that, I thought, you know, we started off saying, you know, what you can do that's outside of bias and systemic things. But I think that one of the reasons why that initial intimate network you talked about for women, it's one that we pull levers on a lot, is because we have had to support each other to override some of the spaces that, you know, were barriers to us, right? J. Kelly Hoey: That's exactly it. So these women, so there were several longitudinal studies, like we're talking like 15 years, you know, 50 organizations, 16,000 employees. So this was not like, you know, hey, we surveyed 20 people and here's the outcome. And so they were looking at an organization, where you're comparing apples to apples, right, in terms of we hire at this level, people need to have this GPA, or you know, they need whatever. And what they found, once they had eliminated out, you know, like I want to say discrimination in all shapes and flavors and sizes, then there were still, in spite of hardships, let's just put it that way, there were still women excelling in this environment. And what wasn't and it came down to the network piece. So the women, who were equally ambitious, equally gritty, all the rest of it, they were networking like the dudes. And these women who got ahead and… it gets to the point you're hitting on. Why you need an inner circle that is like-minded, you know, other women, is exactly for the reason to say, Paula, I know you're going to go into that meeting with so-and-so, but he hates the color red. So do not wear your fabulous red glasses this time and tone down the lipstick, because his ex-wife wore red and he just sees red, when he sees red. And that's the kind of advice, right? And that's a silly example, right? Go back to the one I talked about, the executive who said, my admin's going to get the meeting faster. I'm going to tell you, you know, we're going to script this out on how you navigate it, right? That is what that inner circle is. It is not the shoulder to cry on, right? Create your, you know, your inner circle, your tribe, you know, your peeps for that, right? Like if that's what your sister does for you, or your mom, or, you know, your best friend, go to those things, but don't… I found too many women often that are like, oh, when I talked to so-and-so and they weren't understanding, I'm like, Why would you talk to them about that? They don't understand working in this environment. They aren't in your career. They're not in your profession. They don't live in your city. Why them? Like, okay, your ego, your emotions, they needed the comfy blanket and the cup of tea, don’t go to those people for that. Give each network the right job to do. Paula Edgar: I mean, this is perfect in terms of the tea. I've been thinking about one of my past podcasts, one of the most downloaded ones is on your, why you should have a personal board of directors. And right, so like committee, cry committee, business committee, right? Go shopping committee, right? And that segmentation, I think, you know, the great piece about this book is that it will help folks to be strategic in thinking about who serves what role. Whether some people need to be retired, whether those people are going to be, you know, and advise me, et cetera. And, you know, and folks ask about a resource like this all the time, right? It's just like, well, what am I going to do? How am I going to map it out? In fact, I'm doing a panel now about your network that's timeless. And I'll be talking, I might just bring it with me and be like, guys, just go ahead and get the book. I don't have time. Go ahead. Please. J. Kelly Hoey: She's got it. Yeah. Paula Edgar: That part, that part. And I just love it, because, you know, I'm mighty Gen X. I like to write things down. It is what it is. It is what it is. Okay. So what does a strategic network look like versus a reactive one? J. Kelly Hoey: I mean, reactive is exactly, you know, what you think it is. It's like all of a sudden you're like, oh, I need to do this. Right. And for some people that may work. For some people, I'm probably, you know, pointing my finger at the other gender, right, where men's networks typically are one built on activity and it doesn't have the same depth of relationship. There are human preferences and gender preferences towards how we build relationships. So, hey, I need to go and get some business. You know what? Let me just call up these, you know and do that. But what I often think about “reactive” is something has happened and we all of a sudden need human relationships. You know, you're changing jobs, you're, you know, you're deciding to make a transition, you're up for a promotion, right? That's the stuff that's built on trust. And that takes longer. Paula Edgar: Say more about that, because I don't think people… that has to be a call out. Say more about that, because I do think people think, while we say over and over again, it shouldn't be transactional, they think that it's a withdrawal that should happen. J. Kelly Hoey: What do you have to… sort of one of those things, like who and when are you going to put your reputation, your brand, on the line, who are you going to do that for? You are going to do that for someone where you have seen consistency, you have seen a pattern of behavior that you can trust. Or through them, you can trust the introduction. So you and I may not see each other all the time, other than, you know, posts online, that kind of stuff. We may not have talked in a while. But it's like, no, if Paula lands in my inbox and says, hey, I want to introduce you to our, oh, I see you know so-and-so, I can trust this brand. I'm prepared to align my brand, my network, my resources with this person. And that to me is sort of like thinking about strategic versus reactive, like, there's more power in networking than just showing up once. Like there's more power in your brand than, you know, one banner at one conference or, you know, having the right color, right? There's how people talk about you. There's how people think about you. That’s where all of those kinds of things… And so it's like, that's when it's strategic. Like, who do I want to be in the world? How do I want to interact with people? How do I want them to think about me? And how do I ensure I have this net of resources that I can always pull upon, you know, to support me and so that I can also support them. Paula Edgar: I hope y'all heard that. For those of you listening, I'm pointing my finger at the microphone. I hate to listen. OK, so this is something that, this next question, I want to preface it with, I get pushback on this all the time. So, I'm committed to love. I always say, I'm an extrovert's extrovert. And so I love to be in community with people and I love to be a connector of folks. It's just a part of who I am. But I get people saying all the time, like, is it that serious? Can I just like put my head down and do the work? You emphasize that building relationships with other women, in particular, is non-negotiable. So why do you think people resist specifically the connection with women and then generally, the connection, like connecting with people as a thing. Like, why is it that there's resistance there, you think? J. Kelly Hoey: Because it involves time, because it involves other humans and we are messy, complicated creatures. And, you know, like as someone else who's also, you know, Gen X, we, you know, drank a meritocracy, you know, Kool-Aid years ago and we'd like to… oh, I'm just going to be picked for my work, right? Or my work's going to speak for itself. And God bless, that would be lovely. But the fact is our work speaks for itself, because other people are talking about it. Other people are using it. Other people are spreading the word. They're saying you need to work with, you need to read, you need to do whatever. And that involves having conversations with other people. Paula Edgar: Oh yes, oh yes, yes, yes, yes. So what do you think is a networking habit that people have that they think might be helping their brand, but is actually hurting it? Or I'll edit the question. Just tell me a networking habit that people have that is hurting their brand. What's hurting their brand in terms of networking? J. Kelly Hoey: You know what, like right now, you know, and I think because, you know, one platform that's, I'm thinking digitally, you know, let's go digitally first, right? You know, LinkedIn is really powerful for professionals right now. And too many people are writing, relying on AI to write their posts. And it's flattening their language. It's like, I don't even, I can just see visually that this has probably been written by AI. If I see “architecture” or “performative” in the first three sentences without scrolling, I know it's been written by AI and that's diminishing your brand. Paula Edgar: Yes, yes, yes. J. Kelly Hoey: Because I am not reading your post. So even if you did have something valuable to say, I'm not reading it. Paula Edgar: Right, yeah, yeah. J. Kelly Hoey: So I think there's that. And then I think in terms, also of networking, people not understanding the resources they have. So that network audit, which is chapter two of the book, that's why it sits there at the front of the book. Right. Like understanding what resources we have, understanding what networks we already have, understanding our own sort of role in this life cycle of building all of this and how we have either contributed to it, right, or are contributing to it. Or we all of a sudden we can go, oh, wow, I got way more support and way more stuff here than I, than I thought before and now I can approach this networking thing differently. Paula Edgar: I will just chime in and answer the question myself too. Following up is the F word. This kicks me off every single time. I'm just like, you know what? You can't beat me once and think we're going to be best friends and you can beat me. It's just that we need to be in community with each other. And so I have… And somebody gave me a good edit to this, but I can't remember it whenever I want to think about it. So blame perimenopause, but whatever. I call it my hit list. I always have 15 people. I look at it monthly and I'm like, these are the people, who I'm prioritizing. I want to see what's going on. And it's usually that people in my circle, obviously, but then who I might want. It might be clients, it might be potential podcasts, whoever it is. But there's a strategy there that helps me to not go outside of what my goals are. And as my goals shift, I'm continuing to look at this. So. I think people just need to know, you got to put the work in. J. Kelly Hoey: That's why it's called net work, it's work. It's like there's effort involved. There's going to be, as my pal Susan McPherson says, there's friction, right? Because you got to put in this effort and you got to think about someone else. And some of it is kind of difficult. It isn't just, you know, every once in a while it glides through easy, or it appears to. But if we actually peel back years and layers, right, sometimes there is absolute happenstance and serendipity, right, right place, right time, but probably it's because you're really clear on what you need and what the value you bring. And you can say to someone who goes, oh my God, that's exactly what I need. But yeah, but yeah, you and I have gone on before about the follow up the follow through. Oh my God, it's the easiest, like networking, like in terms of activity, it is the easiest mistake to fix in my mind. And it has such a big impact. Paula Edgar: Yeah, I agree. J. Kelly Hoey: No cocktail parties and work in a room required. You just have to follow through, follow back, you know, follow back, you know, circle back with someone who's helped you before. Yeah. Paula Edgar: It's, you know, like my friend Jason Levin, who's also been on the podcast, he always says, if you don't know what to do, think about gratitude. Who are you grateful for? Right. And like, it could be a long time ago, it could be recently, but to start there, because it'll help be a catalyst to reaching out or connecting with other people. And I found that to be a really great strategy, where I'm just like, hmm, what could things happen? What am I thankful for? And then it starts, you know, kicking in. But I also love a note that's just like, you ran across my mind. J. Kelly Hoey: Yes. Paula Edgar: I saw your LinkedIn posts and I just wanted to say hello. Like, it doesn't even have to have a lot of weight to it. It just has to say I cared, I thought about you, like the humanity of it all that we started out talking about. J. Kelly Hoey: Exactly. I remember this time, when I saw this article, or I thought about whatever. You're absolutely hitting on it, sort of the sociology of us being human beings. Because so many times people will say to me, oh, but what do I say? Well, it's like, I don't have your lived experience with this person. Right. Even if we both know you, we both… people have different lanes and entry points to knowing someone. And so it's like, you've got to pull on your experience versus, you know, like me pulling on say, oh, just say this to Paula, that'll hit the button and she'll definitely respond. Like, I don’t know. Paula Edgar: Not with compliments, everyone, but anyway. So, do you think that COVID and sort of the experience of being in the pandemic made this even more a high priority, in terms of people not being able to people well? J. Kelly Hoey: Oh, there's so many layers. I was chatting with someone about that yesterday and part of it was, it's like, yes, the pandemic, yes, the rise of online courses. Then you can start going back to, you know, helicoptering, you know, parents, parenting and, you know, like, you know, just when did people have to start doing group activities? When did we stop doing, you know, physical education in school that required us to pick and do teams and work together? Like you start pulling back all these layers and say, when was it acceptable for us not to talk to each other? Right? When did we decide we were so busy that it was easier, you know, in a restaurant to hand a kid an iPad, you know, and actually, right, because you do that, maybe do that when you've got a baby, right? I'm not a mother, but that might be easier. But then what does that tell your five year old, your six year old, your eight year old, your 12 year old? What's acceptable? Paula Edgar: Right. Yeah, and how to, not even what's acceptable, but how to do it, right? So I'm glad you brought up that point, because my kids are always a place where I see, one, my blind spots, and two, what's happening in society. Which is, one, I realize, I have both, a boy and a girl, they're seven years apart. My son, if he doesn't want the steak, he's sending the steak back. Period. Hard stop. My daughter is not going to send the steak back. Now, she's in college right now and he's in middle school. If she has to call the doctor or call somebody, she's like, there's no app, right? Isn't there an app to do this? And I'm like, pick up the telephone. And I am even doing this and she's like, what are you doing with your hands? I was like, you know what? Forget you. Flip it open or whatever it is that you do. But they literally have to see it in action to understand the reason why my son knows that he's going to send something back is, because he's seen me being like, ah, this is cold or I'm not going to do that and take it on. She has also seen it. But I wonder about the divergence there, in terms of how they have, you know, gotten that information and then the culture and all the other pieces that we're talking about with gender get into impact, because he… J. Kelly Hoey: There's definitely gender stuff, in terms of what we, not even if… even if in our family units, as a parent, a godmother, an aunt, you know, all the roles I get to play is, you know, do we treat the boys differently than the girls? And then how does that translate into how they interact… what they, you know, their interactions with other people, but also it's where we need to catch ourselves, you know? You know, a seven-year-old or, you know, ten-year-old boy sending back, you know, a meal in a restaurant versus, you know, a girl of the same age, like, we can probably already have the little thoughts in our mind, look at this, look, he knows, he can speak his mind. Well, she's just going to turn into a little B-I-T-C-H, you know what I mean? So there is that element where we can, even if we are fighting against those stereotypes and those gender norms ourselves, you know, we've got the rest of the world. Paula Edgar: We're going to have to pass it down. We're going to have to pass it down. J. Kelly Hoey: The rest of the world is still like thinking, you know, like thinking and doing these things, but it makes it really hard. But I think anyone needs to think, all right, where am I, you know, creating opportunities, like for people to interact in a way that doesn't involve this. I was listening to a podcast on it, but my friend, Joanne Tombracos, wrote a great piece on, she teaches at NYU, she writes on marketing and sales and pitching and all this great stuff. But she was writing to her students, who are much younger than Joanne, much younger than me, they've been obsessed with Love Story. You know, the series, the television series about, you know, JFK Jr. and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And it was sort of this whole idea of, you know, moving through the world without this thing, right? And how, how did people interact? And so listening to the New York Times podcast about it, and they're saying, you know, people are, you know, younger people who are now obsessed with this are like, let's go out to this restaurant and talk. Let's meet at this corner and let's not bring our phones, let's do that. So I think, you know, I think we're so, there's so much we're turned off by, that we'll slowly and awkwardly find our way back to doing this. Paula Edgar: I think that you're a hundred percent right. My husband and I, we really try, like when we go out to eat, we're like, okay, let's put the phone down. And then we'll say something like, well, let's go search it and be like, oh, we're going to put our phone down. It's a muscle that we have to exercise. But so much so, another friend of mine, Amber, who's been on the podcast, she has conversation cards. And I'm like, let's bring the cards with us. So we're going back to a space where we're getting analog to get out of the digital space that we're in, so that we can connect better, which is ironic, because I've been there, done that, but you still need the human connection, which is where we started in the conversation. Now, you talk about wealth hiding in plain sight, when it comes to relationships. What are people overlooking right now? Where is that wealth hiding? I need to know because I need… J. Kelly Hoey: Well, you know, you're going to do that… You probably started to do it, but you're going to do that audit in chapter two of the book. The other reason for putting that chapter at the beginning of the book, even though the networking piece is until chapters five and six of the book, is you do this audit and you think, I don't have anything, you know, I don't, I don't, whatever. Then you're like, oh, here's where I'm making a mistake, or here's where I'm over-indexing. As we sit and ruminate on these questions and that might be overnight, it might be hours later, it might be weeks later, we're like, oh, I know these people. Oh, oh, I forgot about that network. I forgot I did that job. And I know those people like, that's the wealth that's hiding in plain sight. Paula Edgar: Yeah. J. Kelly Hoey: Right. We're so fixated with networking that we have to meet new people, you know. Paula Edgar: Yes. J. Kelly Hoey: Prince Charming comes running in to save the day or a knight in shining armor, you know, whatever it is, a rescuer with a network. If I just met that perfect person at that cocktail party, my investor woes would be solved rather than saying, oh, I might already have that. Paula Edgar: Who's already in this space? You know, even when you were saying that just now and I did start, but I was not done, just being able to think about the different segments. And one, the funniest thing for me was, you know, I have my own business. I'm always in a business development mode. I would say, you eat what you kill, so I'm hungry all the time. I'm going to kill everything, da, da, da, da, da and all that, right? Engage your hustle. But one of the networks that I have that is probably the wealthiest, literally, I went to boarding school with a ton of people, who were wealthy and I never tapped into it. And I was like, Paula, what is going on here? Now, again, I'm aligned with the, you know, go to alumni things, but I don't think about it, or I hadn't, I should say, because I am, thought strategically about how to manifest and connect the connection of going to the one same school with how do we collaborate with each other. Or even get to know each other more, if we weren't there at the same time. That, when I thought about this question, I was like, yeah, that's literally, well… J. Kelly Hoey: Yeah and you know this is where I flip, you know, two things I would say in terms of flipping things is like why are you prevent… like you may be the solution to their problems. Right, this is like you may make one of them look really good, because they're like… say to someone else, oh my God, I went to boarding school with this gal and you need to work with her. Like, you know, like, like, why are you depriving them of that? I mean, the other piece on this is, is kind of the research where, you know, it's this funny lopsidedness, you know, in that we hesitate to ask, right? We've got all these feelings of self doubt and oh and what happens if they say no and then we're all going through our head. And we forget the flip side. How much do we love being asked? How much do we love helping someone? And so the other piece on, you know, tapping those networks is why are you depriving someone of that feel-goodness? Paula Edgar: Yeah. Yes. I love that. I love that mindset shift too, because it's also, you know, when people would talk about strategic self-promotion, people are like, oh, I don't want to talk about myself, because I don't want to be bragging. But it's like, you know, if they need what you have and you don't talk about it, then they won't know. J. Kelly Hoey: Right, that's exactly it. They will not know unless you say, like, I am the solution to your problems. Like, let me jump in here. Paula Edgar: How has writing this book changed how you show up in your own relationship, or your own brand? J. Kelly Hoey: You know, what was really interesting on this one is, this one really allowed me to be Kelly. In the sense that everything you see, when you get this book, from, you know, the design, the layout, that's all me. I worked with an incredible book designer that I hired and this one, you know, chose to self-publish it, because it was like, this is what my vision is. This is what I want it to be. This is how I think this material needs to… and like, I wrote the book and I started writing it, you know, kind of in traditional, like, nonfiction format. And I was like, oh my God, I am bored writing this. I was not even going to want to read it. So I like ripped it apart, like reorganized stuff. And this has been worked and worked. So in many ways, I'm like this in terms of the difference between the two books, because of this format, I'm like, this one really allowed me to be me. Paula Edgar: I love that, that authenticity. Even when you're talking about it, you're like beaming. Okay, so if someone listening realizes they need to rethink their network, what's the first move that they should make this week, after they purchase your book? J. Kelly Hoey: You know what, I've said it before, go do chapter two. It's sort of like Monopoly, do not pass, do not collect $200, do not, you're like, whatever. Do not skip that chapter. Because that'll either say, it's going to do a lot of things. One, you're going to realize the wealth of resources that you have. You're going to see what you're not pulling on, right? Or you're going to say, oh, I see where the gaps are. Now I know how to really smartly focus my networking time. Or you're going to look at it and go, I'm going to have to have a good hard look in the mirror, because my brand has not been such that other people want to be in my network. Paula Edgar: Yes. One of my favorite jokes, when I'm presenting, is like, I would write a book on self-awareness, but nobody would buy it. J. Kelly Hoey: We're all self-aware. I don't need that book. You just open it up and there's a mirror. Paula Edgar: Yeah, I think it's a vulnerable… anytime you have to do assessment for yourself, it's a vulnerable thing, but it's usually for good, right? To have an understanding of, you know, what's driving you, or what's being perceived and seen, is just an important thing. And it doesn't go away. If the challenge is there, if you're not asking yourself, the challenge is still there, you just don't know it. So might as well get the information so you can start to act on it. So yes, I love that. Okay. What is one relationship people should be investing in right now that they're probably ignoring? J. Kelly Hoey: Oh, I think in themselves. Like now some people might be over indexing on doing that. But this is again, I want to say kind of transparency with yourself. Like how have you been treating other people? Right. How have you been looking after yourself? How are you prioritizing, you know, what your goals and ambitions are, versus what everyone else expects you to do? So if there's that one relationship, because your relationship with yourself is the one that's going to radiate out and impact others. Paula Edgar: That's branding, baby. Okay, so we've talked about doing the self-assessment and the network mapping and kind of seeing where your different networks are. Because it's a workbook style book, what do you think, is there another exercise in there that is as important, I know all of them are, but as that one, is there one that you think you've got to hear about this one too? J. Kelly Hoey: Oh, I mean, the other thing I would get for people to do is, you know, and I think whether you're happy in what you're doing, or you're thinking about doing something else, see where you draw your energy. And so in terms of looking at your calendar and seeing, right, we can all have really busy weeks and still feel energized. You have lapsed weeks and feel tired, right? Where, as you're thinking about what needs to shift and change in your own life, like, what is the stuff that, right, fails your boat? And what's the stuff that, you know, depletes it? And I think doing that type of exercise from the chapter on grit, so you can say, OK, now I get it, right? This stuff is draining me. Why is it draining me? I used to really enjoy this. I used to enjoy chairing this committee or leading this fundraising effort. I'm not so much anymore. Why is that the case? Okay. How do I, you know, engage with this group or this activity differently? Where do I delegate? Where do I, you know, where do I carve time and approach things differently? I love mentoring, but one-on-one is draining me. All right. What about groups? You know, do that kind of thing, where you get your energy and how you're allocating your time. I think that's an important one to do. Paula Edgar: I think that you're absolutely right. You know, you and I met because of the New York City Bar Association. Shout out. And I have gone from simple member to vice president. Thank you very much. When I think about the different… because I'm on a lot of different boards and I do a lot of different things. One of the ways that my coach has been helpful to me is to be like, is this organization or this volunteerism still serving you the way that you were excited about at the beginning and or it's hitting your values? Like there's a couple of checks in there that I have to hit or I have to get rid of them. And so I had to get rid of a few last year. I have to look at the ones this year to say, are these right? And I have to make the decision as I go forward of how do I want to use this or do this more? And that has just been really helpful. So for all of you who are thinking that the book will help you with this, you can also think about using and doing some of the exercises with somebody who's helping you with accountability. So I'm going to be taking this to my coach like, hit my network. Now what are we going to do? Let's figure out how to be a billionaire. Yay. J. Kelly Hoey: Love it. The Women's Leadership Alliance, out in California, they're using this as their book club and doing chapter by chapter. And so, you know, you said the word accountability. So not only are they going through the material, they're holding each other accountable, based on their answers and what they're understanding, what they're learning from going through this, which I absolutely love. Paula Edgar: I'm expecting you to be speaking at every women's conference for every women's ERG for everything. I know that we can't say certain words anymore, but still over half of our population is women. So the fact that this is tailored into… J. Kelly Hoey: I want to say, you know what I want to do? I want to do that, but I want to do it alongside you, because the brand part is... Paula Edgar: Let's do it. J. Kelly Hoey: You know, the Paula and Kelly show will say, you know, like the part of what brings this material alive is these kinds of conversations, versus standing there, you know, pointing at, you know, a PowerPoint or whatever. And the lived experience and that so much of what makes people successful in networking, is the same foundational principles of what makes a strong individual brand. Paula Edgar: A hundred percent, a hundred percent. They do not… they are not separate… Like I said, they live in the same house and share that kitchen. It's really true. And I do a lot of things for women's initiatives, et cetera. And I think, number one, I'll be recommending it. But number two, we often like, and we, I'm talking about the collective of women, homework, something to make it tangible and actionable. And this literally is what that is. And you all know, because you listen to the podcast every week, I don't get effusive about things that I'm not actually effusive about. Like the authentic Paula isn't going to be, I'm not, I'm going to say, that's so nice. I'm glad we're here. As opposed to this is the best, you need to do this, because I know, like I said before, that having a tool, but not using it, doesn't help. Right. But this is a tool that can exponentially help us to think about things a little differently and get to that success, in terms of our careers and lives, et cetera. So when somebody finishes this book, if they do nothing else, what's the one shift you want them to make? J. Kelly Hoey: Wow. You know what? I want them to just have more confidence in going forth with their goals. Yeah, more confidence in the decisions and that, you know and then I’d say, once they finish the book and they're like, okay, now I've got it. Then I want you to go back and start again, because this is like, this is not like a one and done. This is like this evolving model, but the network structure you need to get that next promotion might not be the network structure to land the six, you know, new clients. Like, as you already pointed out, you're evolving the committees, the things and it's such a living, a network is such a living organism that you need to keep doing those things. But more than else, just the confidence to say, all right, you know what, I've got a map now. I can do this. Paula Edgar: A map is necessary. I did a session recently and it was for a women's group and there were about a hundred people there. And I use a, you know, online anonymous tool. And so people can ask questions, if they don't want to raise their hands, allow the elephant not to be in the room, but to be trumpeting. And I would say 60% of the questions were about confidence. And so much so that I decided I was going to, I was like, I have to do a podcast just on confidence. And I decided to do a series of it. And one of the, one of the first things I did was to say like, is it a confidence issue, or is it that the confidence is leaking, because of some of the things that you're doing, because of the… what you're… how you're not… J. Kelly Hoey: Ask the wrong person in your network and your confidence gets a knock, right? Paula Edgar: Right, right. J. Kelly Hoey: You know, one of the examples in this book, as in Build Your Dream Network, is a friend of mine who's now back at PwC, but she had been going up the ladder at PwC. She was going to be one of the youngest partners, you know, all this kind of stuff and she realized that's not what she wanted to do. And Val is so just intuitive and natural in doing these things and understanding who she needs to ask. And then she realized the people she was asking about doing something differently were too invested in her succeeding in the role she was in. And so if she hadn't had the understanding that I need to find a different tribe, I need to be having this same conversation with a wider group of people, she may have just, her confidence to step out of what looked like a sure path to success, would have been blocked because, you know, mom, dad, aunts, uncles, you know, family members, all well-intentioned, but scared of you making the wrong decision, that, boom, that's a blow to your confidence. Paula Edgar: That's such a really good point. And I just wanted to double click on that in those contexts, but also in thinking about, you know, whatever that quote is, that you're some of the people who are around you, whatever, there's some quote like that. Somebody will find it and put it in the show notes. There's also sometimes people who are invested in you being stagnant. And so it's always important to also have a look at, are the folks who are, you know, we talked about it in the circle, are they driving you or are they not? You know, my therapist says growth begins where comfort ends. So you cannot be comfortable. You have to be a little uncomfortable. And sometimes people are invested in you just staying the way you are. And so you have to, I love that you said that the person who needs the most, it's got to talk about you. What's the you part of this? Yes. Well, as usual, our conversations go by way too quickly. But I have one question for you, before we end, which is this, what is one thing about how you build relationships that you will never compromise on? J. Kelly Hoey: I invest for the long term. Always for the long term. Paula Edgar: Well, we are proof of that. And so I am so happy that I had to have you on my podcast again and that you've got this fabulous, hold that again, new book for everybody. J. Kelly Hoey: I thought you'd like the Tiffany-ish blues that are in it. Paula Edgar: I love it. Y'all, you got to see it. I love it. I love the font. I love the shadow. Listen, I gave it a good look. I was like, okay, because, you know, the author is still on my list. So I'm, we're getting there. Everybody, tell a friend to tell a friend who needs to think about their network a little bit better. And you know they do. Forward this to them. And remember always to stand by your brand. Bye, y'all. That's it for this episode. I appreciate you hanging out with me on Branding Room Only. Now, please do me a quick favor. Head over to RateThisPodcast.com/branding, so more people can join this conversation. And make sure to stop by PaulaEdgar.com/events to see what's next. Whether I'm live, online, or in person, I'd love to see you there. See you next time in the branding room. And until then, stand tall, shine bright, and always stand by your brand.